Charlie and Steve Watch Stuff

[00:00:00] Hi friends. Welcome to Charlie and Steve. Watch stuff, and today we are watching Batman. The animated series. My name is Steve Snick and with me today, as always, he's just, the pussy I've been looking for is Charlie Peppers.

Charlie, how you doing today, friend?

I am doing well even better. After that intro friend,

I had to bring a little Danny DeVito into our discussion that involves Catwoman. You

you, you had to,

of creeper penguin.

you have

You have to.

and we're we're keeping a tradition alive. It's now two times in a row, so I'm officially calling it a tradition. We have a very special guest to welcome onto Charlie and Steve Tuff to discuss this two-parter involving Catwoman.

We'd like to welcome prolific writer and podcaster, the host of Angel on Top, and the Empire Diaries. Listen to them. Wherever your podcast are found, it's Latoya Ferguson. Latoya, thank you so much for joining us. I'm Charlie and Steve Tuff. How are you?

I am doing well. Hi guys. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk about Catwoman Meow.

It [00:01:00] Mia

Me out

Indeed.

Claw up everybody. It's, it's really nice to have you. We love the opportunity to have other friends to come and talk to us about stuff that we love. And this is obviously not a video medium, but I have the pleasure of getting to see Charlie's face right now, and he is absolutely bursting at this seam with pride and joy for having you onto the show.

So Charlie, I'd love for you to just kind of tell us about how you connected with Latoya, and it sounds like you're just, you can't wait to just gush about her. So I'm gonna let you do that for a second.

All right. So my relationship with Latoya began as a parasocial relationship. 'cause it was pretty much just me listening to Angel on top being like, oh my God, I love these takes Latoya just has a way of discussing not only characters in pop culture, but also her love of TV in general is so aspirational They do this [00:02:00] segment where at the end of the Angel on top episodes, they wonder what Angel would watch on the wb. And the WB growing up was one of my favorite places just to get tv and they're pulling out deep cuts on the wb, like I think one of them was Gross Point. Gross Point

was on the wb. .

But yeah, then I met Latoya on the picket line.

Literally you

could see my

Picket line.

signs with all the boxes like behind me. Actually,

Yeah. Yeah. And from there we've just been pals and just talk about the things and I'm very excited to watch Latoya get into a room, as I know is gonna happen this year. Kick ass and become a powerful showrunner.

Aw, thank you. And

we watched Batman

returns together during the, the holiday

season?

Yeah, I had a Batman returns.

that?

Yeah.

Oh my goodness. I'm so jealous. I

wish I [00:03:00] could've. I live in San Francisco. I want, I got the invite. Charlie texted it to me being like, just in case you can come. And I'm like, you know, my FOMO is very large for this, but I unfortunately cannot come on a couple days notice. I wish one day I'll be that successful where I can just charter a flight real

quick down to LA to see my besties.

I basically got to win white elephant without bringing in a gift. I got like a nice bottle of wine.

You did. You did. I broke my white elephant gift by dropping

it

You broke it

so hard. You just kept breaking it.

I know. I

one. You broke the other.

I, I mean, at least they match now.

Shattered. Shattered dreams.

Oh, all the shattered, shattered dreams. I'm so happy you're here, Latoya. Thank you so much for joining us.

Of course.

Charlie, I wanna give you flowers really quickly before I ask Latoya to speak about herself a little bit more. But this is now the second person you've brought on the podcast that you've essentially just like. Willed a relationship with Via [00:04:00] enjoying the content that they've been bringing you. Because we brought on Ian Carlos Crawford for our saltburn podcast, which is another relationship that Charlie started, because he was like, I love the work that you do. I want to have a relationship with you because it seems like you put a lot of your person into your work, and I really enjoy that. So I must enjoy your person too. And I'm just so impressed by the relationships that you're able to forge based on finding common threads with people. And I think this relationship right here is a testament to that. But Latoya, I wanna just give you the opportunity to, I mean, we've already said from the rooftops that you're such a prolific writer and podcaster, but I, I wanna hear it from you as well. Tell us a little bit about yourself, things that you love to watch. I, I know that this is a hard left turn from the stuff that you're watching right now, but just tell us a little bit in our audience about yourself.

I mean, I, I'm not just watching the OC season two right now.

I'm watching, I'm watching so many things. I, I mean, no, I'm, I'm still in the early going of the season, so it's still fun right now,

actually. We're about, we're about to hit the pivot point though after like the [00:05:00] first seven episodes. But yeah.

So I'm just a, a lover of tv of course. If anyone listening knows me, they're probably, again, where from my podcast, but also like my career as a, a TV critic got my start at the AV club. RIP basically, honestly. it's the, the old three Rock Kenna Parcell. There's only two things.

I love television and everyone, but really it's, it's kind of television for me. So, yeah, I just I love television. I love talking about it especially. Yeah, you, you can see how Charlie lights up, like that's how I light up about, like, talking about television. I love in general, which is why I'm so happy.

Of course, I get to podcast about Angel, get to podcast about the Vampire Diaries. Get to talk to you guys about TV right now too. But yeah, I am very proud to be rewatching the OC for episodic medium coverage, which is like a lot of actually AV club castoffs, I guess you could call us. We're all kind of writing there.

With Miles McNutt is our editor, former AB club writer as well. So I, I'm covering that [00:06:00] there. I will be cont continuing to cover Abbott Elementary there. So I, I watch that. I've been rewatching, let's see, I was doing a Boston legal rewatch after I did like a, a full, the practice rewatch. I kinda. Hit a little bump of the road in my Boston legal rewatch because once you get to season four, where it's like we don't really have money to pay people, the, the big names like Julie Bowen leaves, mark Val leaves and everything.

It's like, okay, I'm kinda, I kinda hit a plateau there, unfortunately. I've been rewatching the Detour, which was a comedy on TBS that like no one watched, but I loved greatly. It's like

It starts off as

like this road trip comedy. It's

created,

by Samantha B and her husband Jason Jones. Jason Jones stars in it with Natalie Z, and it's just so like so many.

callbacks and Easter eggs and one of those things is like one of those shows you have to really pay attention to. In comedy form. I, I really recommend anyone who's never seen The Detour watch it. 'cause I'm like, it's cracking my shit up. Re-watching it now. And I, I loved it so much. [00:07:00] Really just, I, I wanna do a 30 rock re-watch, especially after it went viral on Twitter, you know? And like, what's the best 30 rock joke? I, I wanna do a rewatch of that. Yeah. I just, I I love television guys.

You make me like television more just from being around you. I'm so serious. Like it's, it's the best energy.

I agree. Your enthusiasm is very infectious. It's very cool. And it makes me wanna talk about television, which we're gonna do right now. Well.

to talk about as the CW once said.

cw. Oh man, you've got all this, this TV luggage just locked and loaded. This is so good. We can have a quiz at the end but we're gonna talk about some Catwoman, one of someone that we feel Charlie Personifies personally. He just did a little shimmy for. Again, wishing this is a video, video, cute times of this podcast.

Again, Latoya has an amazing, just Elmo hanging out on her microphone and it's, it's bringing me joy every time I look at it. But let's talk about. The Cat and the Claw part one of two. We are gonna be talking about both episodes in this episode of Podcasting. directed by [00:08:00] Kevin Al Terry.

Story by Sean Catherine, Derek, and Lauren Bright Teleplay by Jules Dennis and Richard Mueller. The plot does introduce Catwoman who tries to purchase land for a Mountain Lion Reserve.

But a group of terrorists led by Red Claw water her. So she and Batman have to put aside their differences in order to stop Red Claw. And I am going to now pass the ball proudly over to Charlie because if you've been listening to Charlie and see if watch stuff, you know that these are the episodes that he wished and prayed would be on every time they came on television, back when that was a thing. So Charlie, I'd like you to take it and lead us through the cat in the cloth part one.

So we open on Catwoman scaling a wall of an apartment complex. It's just her. She has a cat that's miraculously clinging on to her shoulder as she does all these acrobatics, and she breaks into a woman's home using her claws to [00:09:00] get a beautiful diamond necklace. So what I love mostly about this is that Shirley Walker who scores all of Batman, the animated series, scored the hell out of cat woman's theme.

It's playful, sultry, lightly menacing, and just downright sexy. I think it really supports her characterization in a way that we haven't seen with other villains on the show before, and that's only heightened when Batman interrupts her and we get a three-part. Chase, what did y'all think of their first interaction?

I was fascinated by the fact that this two-parter is about how Batman slash Bruce Wayne learns that women can do things.

I have this in the notes

They can be cat burglars, they can be terrorists. He's like, wow. But I'm

not judging this. I'm, I'm surprised, but I'm not judging.

I'm not mad.

Yeah, that was definitely Bruce, [00:10:00] a woman. Our cat burger is a woman.

Ooh.

Oh my goodness. I did love the cat wrapped around her neck the entire time. And you get that initial connection between her and the felines, which I think is important to establish with the cat woman. I do think in this three-part chase scene, they do a wonderful job of expressing the fact that they're both really, really hot and they're both really, really into each other.

And I think that's an important establishment to make. And I, I watched these episodes way back when we were starting to like, think about this idea of a podcast because this, these are the first two episodes on Max. But watching them back now, after we've gotten all of this improvement in the animation and this characterization, it, it just, I saw stuff that I didn't see the first time and this was the first thing just being like, oh, they're making a point of being like, these people are hot,

Yeah. just the low angle that we see Batman at the first time through Cap Women's POV really did something. It did something for me. I won't say what, but it did something for me. So really love that. I [00:11:00] also love how at every part of their chase, it seems like Batman lets her get away than he catches up to her.

It feels a bit more like a ballet and a game than him chasing a normal person until they get to the alleyway and Catwoman iss like, all right, fuck you. I'm actually trying to get away from you. Beats him up, gets her cat to come up with her when she uses that whistle that only the cat can hear, which I thought was a clever way of showing that Catwoman is.

Somebody who can think quickly on her feet, which is what I really love about this portrayal. But they have that back and forth interaction, which is really great. And which segues into them being in their civilian clothes at the auction. What did y'all think of this auction scene?

This is maybe it's just 'cause I've been watching things from the nineties in general, but I think growing up I thought like bachelor auctions were a more common thing than they are in my

[00:12:00] Adult

life. Honestly, I, I wanna be part of a bachelor

auction. I

couldn't afford a

bachelor. I know that, but like, I wanna just like, go to one,

right.

Like,

Have you ever been to a bachelor?

auction?

It's been a long time.

no. I've never been to a bachelor auction. But I've seen a lot of Go-go dancers who take tips. I don't know if that counts.

It's not

the same.

I was

gonna say, that's the evolution maybe.

the, that's the evolution. It is just far, far less close in West Hollywood.

I watched it again right before we hopped on here, and I watched it with headphones on and I heard the, I've been pinching my pennies for you line very, very clearly from just like random female voice in background. And I definitely thought pinching was gonna be something different right after it.

So I kind of preemptively gasped at it. And then it was pennies and I laughed really hard. But yeah, very, as, as Latoya said, he finds out women can do things. It's very, we've said a few times that it, it very much so sticks out as a show that's in the early [00:13:00] nineties and we'll probably touch on that later when we get to the like red scare of it all.

When Red Claw comes around

Oh God. Red Claw. Can't wait to talk about her. So what I really, what I really love. Oh no, Steve, I will reach through the screen. She does not look like Zena. How dare you. what I really love about this is that it kind of calls back to the Batman returns masquerade ball, where Bruce Wayne is struck by Michelle Pfeiffer's.

Catwoman. Selena comes in, she throws down $10,000, but she's only doing it for the cause. She doesn't wanna date with Bruce Wayne. And what I really love about this is that when she walks away, Bruce grabs her arm and he's like, wait a minute. They animate her looking down at his arm, then looking up at his face, like, excuse me, she was ready to cut a bitch.

And it makes me love her character even more, that she's somebody, even in her voice performance, she's not trying to sound light or [00:14:00] unthreatening, her voice is always full and confident and she's direct. I love how powerful, not only the animation, but the voice actress made her.

Yeah, I am fascinated by this depiction of Selena. 'cause whether they're like, you know, she's an animal rights person and everything. To me, I was thinking this seems like very poison ivy, but I guess, you know, that's more environment, just like the plants really. She doesn't care about those animals, just the plants. It's an interesting depiction coming into this obviously to see that a girl can be a cat burglar and an animal rights activist.

seemingly like money from whatever source that isn't

important. I think it's very rare that you get a woman showing up being like, I have this money and it doesn't matter how I got it. I just have it and you're not gonna question it. I do. And I think that having the origin of Catwoman in Batman returns is important. And I think it contributes to that movie very specifically. Much like you get introduced to an already established Batman and already

[00:15:00] established Joker. Whether or not that's successful, I like that we're getting an already established Catwoman

who's been doing her thing. Batman is aware of, well aware of her enough to now find out that it's a her.

And now

we've talked about how Batman is kind of reacting to the world around him and that it's basically when the villain makes enough noise, that's when Batman comes in

to do his thing. And he's not necessarily doing like prevention yet he can't stay ahead of it. And I think now this is like Catwoman Hass been doing her thing.

She's also this person who's successful and you, I, I just really like how they rounded her out in this version

Yeah, I, I like that it's not an origin story.

But you know who Batman wasn't aware of. It's the one that we get introduced to the Red Claw. I wanna talk about the Red Claw for a second. Not only does Gordon warn Batman about the Red Claw, which I appreciate 'cause you get to see their budding partnership, but when we see [00:16:00] Red Claw for the first time, she definitely impacts my score for this episode.

'cause I think that, unlike Selena, she just doesn't really seem to have any complexity to her. She's just very one note of,

oh, we're gonna do acts of terrorism and I can do all of these things and Batman better watch out. So I think she was a very weak counterpoint. And Latoya to, yes. Anne, what you said about poison ivy.

I think that if this episode, the antagonist, if it were poison ivy, I think that would've been stronger,

not only because of their similarities, but Batman has actually faced Poison Ivy before. So to have her as the mirror to Catwoman in this episode would've made it stand even stronger. Gordon and Batman are talking about Red Claw.

They're downloading, and Selena is getting ready for her date with Batman. Well, Bruce, she wishes it were Batman and [00:17:00] she says, ah, you should have seen him. He had the eyes of a lion. I wish that it were him behind the store

and when she opens the door dorky.

Chase Meridian.

Yeah, just like Nicole Kidman and Batman forever.

So when she opens up the door, it's just dorky. Bruce, what do y'all make of the way that Bruce is kind of bumbling around her? Do we think that this is an act or do we think that he's genuinely this smitten?

I think he's this smitten because when they show him at the auction, he's literally blushing.

But yeah.

he is

Also, he's built like a, a

brick shit

house, which is like,

come on.

on.

Same with Clark Kent in

the, the, you know, the Superman animated,

series too. It's

like, are we supposed to really think that there's a,

difference between these two men?

But

yeah, it's, I think

Bruce is smitten. likes

both of.

them, whereas she's just like, I just want Batman.

Yeah. And at this point I think he doesn't know that she's catwoman, he finds out a little bit later, so right now his attention is just [00:18:00] like, oh, look at this. Like also rich woman who's hot and has of cause that she's incredibly dedicated to, Hey, it's the early nineties, they have to be hot. And I, yeah, I think he's a hundred percent smitten.

Absolutely, and I love how he casually flexes by getting her that meeting and just picking up the phone. That's what gets Selena's attention. What I do like is that Bruce does a couple of things to endear himself to Selena. She definitely adores Bruce, but she's not feeling the animal magnetism that she feels with Batman, which I find very, very interesting.

But it's the times where he's Batman esque, that she feels more like the time where he just picks up the phone and calls the guy. It's like that's something that Batman would do. He was leverage a connection to get the thing that you wanted. Batman is the one that comes out when he's driving the car to get away from the goons in the second episode.

So I think that she, she does feel most attracted to Bruce Wayne when he's [00:19:00] being more like Batman, but she's never gets to put that together like he does.

Oh, for sure. For sure, for sure. after their date is over, they both split apart. They get into their costumes and they both do a little investigative work. Batman pays the Mob Bosses a visit for info on Red Claw. Red Claw. We see her laying at her plan for hijacking a viral plague and Catwoman. She breaks into one of the offices from earlier that Bruce got her that meeting at, but she trips an alarm.

We get another fabulous chase scene. We get to see how Catwoman thinks on her feet. We see her crawling through vents. We see this great score coming up whenever she does anything badass, and we see her again come across Batman who ends up saving her at the last minute. Question for both of you. Do you think that [00:20:00] Batman is justified in going after Catwoman this hard?

Not Flirtatiously, I just mean as a criminal. Do you think that Catwoman should get a pass because she's only stealing from rich people?

I mean, he definitely doesn't think that because, you know, he's a billionaire. I think she should get a pass for that, but he's not thinking that. He is not going at her that hard because he's a criminal. He's going to her that hard because he is aroused. But you know, he's gonna use the, the law as his reasoning, the law and order.

But yeah, he's horny.

I Yeah, I agree that he's horny and I, I think that this final whole sequence where he saves her is the closest he comes to letting her go. And then he has that moment where he's like, yeah, but the one thing between us is the law. And then he sees how disappointed and upset she gets by that. And he goes, oh no, I fumbled the bag.

Like I, I a hundred percent just fumbled right here. And you can see him want to try and backtrack and be like, no, I [00:21:00] didn't mean it, and stuff like that. But it's too late for him and she tosses him off the roof. And that's kind of like the closing

of the door of him being able to let her go. But I do think that if it went a little bit differently and if he had perhaps didn't make that choice to stick with the law and order, then maybe there was a chance in that second episode there was a route of him. Maybe dealing with the fact that he was going to let someone skate versus upholding the law. And I actually, I, I think I would've rather seen it go that way rather than him be really only horny for justice.

Selena's followed home in red Claws henchman. They see her pull off her mask, They know that it's Selena Kyle. And with that, we cut to black and the screen says to be continued. Yeah, I love this episode. My inner child loves this episode. Like Steve said, Latoya, every time Batman, the animated series came on, I would [00:22:00] get on my knees and pray to God, please let it be an episode with Catwoman.

Please, please God. I wanna see Catwoman. She's just one of my favorite characters across all media. And what I love about this episode is that it's one of the most balanced portrayals we'll see of her in the animated series because she's not super callous in this.

She's not so blood thirsty that she's gonna go after her goals at the expense of Batman.

She's just doing her, she looks at Batman, she's like, oh, cute. And goes about her business and she gets annoyed with him every now and then. I like that energy for her, and I like that she is such a fiercely independent character in this and that is gonna lead me into my. Battering ranking for the episode.

So this episode I am going to give four batter rings out of five. I think that it's great, but Red Claw definitely [00:23:00] takes away from it being a perfect ranking.

I think I will go three because I think Red Claw takes it down even more for me actually.

Wow, okay. I'm gonna be usually off the bad cop. I'm gonna be the positive Nancy on this one. I'm actually giving this one, four and a half batter rings

and I decided to not, and I'm deciding to not let what you two say about it affect me. I actually, so like I get what they're doing with Red Claw in terms of like cat to cat. So like I get that they were trying to play on a cat theme and that red claws probably more of a play out, a lion, mountain lion. We're gonna get to how. The second episode

concludes, I think in terms of like the dichotomy of Batman Catwoman, the fact that we got our first Batman Gordon moment, which I think is like a really, really important development moment, and, and it happens a little bit more in the second episode. I guess a spoiler for next episode. I didn't like it as much as this one, but I, I [00:24:00] actually, like, I liked this one almost more than almost every episode we've watched so far. Maybe outside of Heart, heart of ice, and maybe one of the two face episodes. So yeah, it's, it's gonna get four and a half ings for me.

I respect that. I respect that.

That's our battering ratings for Cat and Claw part one. We have part two of the Cat in the Claw.

This one was directed by Dixie Bass story by Sean Catherine, Derek, and Lauren Bright Teleplay by Jules Dennis and Richard Mueller. And of course, the plot of this episode. Continuing from episode one, Batman and Catwoman must work together to stop Red Claw from releasing a viral plague outside of Gotham. Charlie, take it back away my friend.

Right, so we get Batman cornering the same mob boss in the park, and he tells him about the upcoming heist and that it's not a family heist. I appreciated that Batman was using an informant, but not gonna lie. This first scene already, you can feel a drop in the writing quality [00:25:00] of the episode. It felt a little like coming off of the hills of that beautiful chase scene with Batman and Catwoman, that now we're just moving people around like plot devices a little bit more

and the character work kind of suffered.

I don't know if you both felt that way.

Yeah, moving the pieces to get to it instead of like, is there a world where there is like an abridged version of this arc? That's just one episode that's tighter. Do you think?

oh, there is absolutely a world where that happens. You know, I think, not gonna lie, my hot take is that the writing team didn't trust Catwoman to carry the episode all by herself. So they got this other threat to come inside to serve as a foil to her and Batman connecting, which. On a level I get having obstacles in their relationship, but they definitely should have trusted her to carry it on her own.

And if we got a two-parter, I think it should have been a big heist that Catwoman was thinking about

doing [00:26:00] and that Batman had to stop her from

Their relationship is the obstacle to their relationship. Really?

You don't need an outside one. Yeah.

You know, the thing between them is the law. So Batman gets that information from the informant. And then we have another beautiful meeting with Gordon where the police are deducing that it's gonna be a military train that Batman has to intersect. When he does intersect it, we get that classic moment of him realizing that Rick Claw is a woman and she rolls up with her unsuspecting army very quickly catching Batman off guard.

I love that he says I'm an equal opportunity crime fighter. I have no idea how that made it into the writer's room, but again, it's the nineties.

He's

like, I will hit a woman.

yeah, they were probably thought that that was like such a feminist thing for them to say in 92, being

like, yeah, Batman doesn't care if you're a [00:27:00] woman. Exactly. He'll still punch you in the face

if you're against justice.

even though he was shocked that the terrorist was a woman. Whoa. And they were later. Like, we thought it was a dude. But the thing that gets me, I wanna talk about is like the Army guys protecting like the virus. And then one of 'em says like, who'd wanna steal a can of germs anyway? And I'm like, okay.

So you guys are just officially saying the Army is dumb. Like, who wouldn't, who would wanna steal a can of germs? A lot of people, honestly, biological warfare, come on.

The other reason why they're dumb is because they're all in the same car. It took one blast to this one car to send all of them away, and there was no one else actually protecting the actual

Yeah. And I don't think this episode was an intentional criticism either of the military, so.

oh

no. Also in my head, Canon, I think that these hired goons are just so oblivious. To this actually being chemical warfare and they're just doing it for the monies that they're like, oh, it's just like a

couple of germs and behind [00:28:00] red Claws back, they're like, they're like, dude, wait, wait, wait. Like chemical warfare we're talking about like people, I'm sure that at least one of the goons had that moment behind closed doors.

no, they're Like

we're talking about chemicals and they don't know what they're talking about.

seriously.

Oh man. so Red Claw gets away and we get Bruce and Selena going to lunch, take two. So Bruce's Batman calls Gordon to hear red claws demands, right, right before picking up Selena for lunch, as they're both talking slick about their business, a Red Claw henchey car attacks, we get this.

Fantastic car chase sequence where Bruce pulls a full 180 U-turn and pressing Selena, and also getting the goons to go off a bridge. Love that. The animators also showed the goons getting out of the car in the water. 'cause again, cartoon, we're not trying to have Bruce murder people. Well, at least maybe not yet.

[00:29:00] We'll unpack that later.

On that vein, I also noticed how the one that he punched off of the train very strategically landed on a tree branch to show that he was very much so alive in

Hmm.

Oh, absolutely.

they, they go to those links. It's like, there's still a bunch of guns in this show. So many guns.

Literal hand grenades.

I love seeing Bruce and Selena go on a date. Then part ways to get into their alter egos and do what they get up to in the nighttime. I think that that's very reminiscent of Batman returns, which again, I fucking stand that movie.

So love seeing it. In the cartoon form, we see Catwoman go after Red Claw, and we see Bruce after finding a cat hair on his suit. Jacket deduce that Selena is actually Catwoman. He goes to her apartment just in time to save her assistant Maven from being attacked by Wright Claws Goons. And as Bruce finds out, the Catwoman went after Red Claw [00:30:00] Maven, and I found this moment to be unbearably corny.

She's like, You should just know that she's in love with you and Batman reacts to it in his face and looks kind of sad, but then he walks off. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Love. She just wants to fuck. Is it love? It's infatuation at

so I just watched a terrible movie with a terrible romantic story for a podcast. The 1989 Hulk Hogan feature film No holds barred, so

like. Romance anywhere. I'm like, I buy this. More than that, they had a real like it's always sunny and now we are in love moment. Like truly

it was. Yes. It was terrible because I was so happy to guess on the podcast.

'cause in my mind I a race that we were doing no holds barred and thought we were doing over the top, the Sylvester Stallone arm wrestling movie. So I like, I watched that, I'm like, this is fun. It's not a good movie, but it's fun. And then I was informed, no, I have to watch the whole Hogan movie.

And that was not [00:31:00] fun.

not as fun. Especially

fun at all.

knowing, his brand now,

Catwoman sneaks onto the base. She's about to get attacked by a mountain lion. But something really cool happens wherein Catwoman just has a natural way with any feline creatures. So the mountain

lion sees her, doesn't feel threatened and becomes a friend. Very cool thing from the cartoon that I wish we'd see in live action.

'cause I think it's just interesting and I like how it's just left vague and not explained. Batman goes there, he sees Catwoman, they're both captured by Red Claw. They're tied to a chair together. It's very. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jamie Lee Curtis and True Lies. They talk a little bit about their relationship.

They get away, and as Batman goes away to do his thing, Catwoman gives him this look of utter sincerity and longing. Which again, going back to what I said earlier, I think the animators and the writers were really trying to hit the [00:32:00] love story home and show that they are each other's true love, which again, I'm very eh on because I know how they follow through with that for the rest of the show, and it kind of doesn't match the same level of this.

So I'm kind of side eyeing it, but also the animation and the expressions on their faces are very beautiful. Bruce is able to douse the play. He manages to get into a leaking tinker. He drives it out of the compound and into a helicopter right after jumping out to his escape. It's very badass. It's probably the most badass thing we've seen Batman do up to this point.

The animation was great. Steve looks like he has something to say about this. What'd you

no, I just totally agree with you. I was actually gonna ask you if that was your favorite set piece action moment of the show so far. 'cause it was definitely mine that, like, that honestly probably gave the episode an extra battering by itself for me.

Mm.

And it's funny, I actually have a funny, I don't have a lot of Riddler trophies for this episode, but the [00:33:00] one that I really do have is that the production team, like the, the, the more central team, the Bruce Tims and the Kevin Al Terrys really don't like the look of the explosions as the base is going up.

They actually like show it as an example of like, this is what bad rushed explosions look like. And I thought that that was really funny 'cause it didn't seem like that to me at all. The flames maybe looked a little like blocky if you like, really look harder at it, which I did after reading that. But in terms of like, Batman just pulled off something absolutely ridiculous.

Like if you go back and walk through theoretically what he did, like he douses gas around an opening plague. He drives away with the gas tanker. He tosses a live grenade out the back window that explodes, and then he chases the flame out of the base, drives through a metal door, dives out of the, again on fire, trailing gasoline tanker into a helicopter and doesn't even [00:34:00] like get a scratch, like Catwoman scratches him more in the alleyway with her claws.

but gotta make sure he doesn't kill anyone.

again, off of that point, he was very confident that nobody was in there. Or maybe this is one of those moments where he just didn't give a fuck. But that, that was very,

be lucky than good.

he Ooh, okay. Batman saves the day and we get this moment between Red Claw and Catwoman that I hate, and that makes my blood absolutely boil.

Red Claw kicks Catwoman down a mountain like four times. And in the comic books, Catwoman is a master of. A dragon style kung fu, and she is at the same fighting level in the DC cannon as Batman's third Robin, Tim Drake. So Selena definitely knows how to throw down. So to see

her get so nerfed in this really, really frustrated me.

But I was glad that the mountain lion tackled Red [00:35:00] Claw in this very hilarious way. What did y'all think of that last show out of Red Claw? Kind of going ape shit on Selena?

I don't think I am as angry about the Red Claw situation as you more as the, I was confounded by what it was, but I think the Red Claws existence is going to ha lead to a lower score,

just so you know.

I do think it's funny that I, I think that there's a lot of, again, we're in 1992, we're not that far removed from the Cold War, and I

think that there's like an active picture being painted that the Russians are like, or at least this Russian is a radical terrorist that would rather take vengeance on someone who messes up the larger plan than like escape to fight another day.

Where like a lot of villains would normally just like go back and lick their wounds, but like, they made a point of being like, no, this one's she's evil. She's the evil Russian fbo, Zeno warrior princess. [00:36:00] I've got a photo, Charlie, I'm posting them next to each other. That's gonna be our Instagram

No, she's more like cheetah in Wonder Woman two. It's more like what she is.

Also, do you guys

wanna hear a fun

Russian story? I know it was not a compliment.

So yesterday I rewatched mission Impossible, dead reckoning 'cause it's on Paramount plus now. 'cause I was watching it with my mom who hadn't seen it yet. And you know, so the opening is like the, it's, it's the Russians in the submarine. And like, that opening moment was so tense and so stressful. My mom's like, I'm rooting for the Russians. My mom says out loud, she's like, I'm, I'm

so worried about these Russians. I'm rooting for the Russians. ended up being very disappointing for her and the Russians.

But yeah, she was like, she felt so bad for these Russian men. They just wanted to play chess in the submarine.

Oh

are a change in.

But you know, it isn't changing. Batman put in Catwoman in handcuffs at the very end because the thing

standing between them is the law. I'm like, well, in my head, cannon, I'd love to imagine that [00:37:00] it just was for them to get down to kinky times. But Bruce is just being a stick in the mud because he's a billionaire boy.

Boy with a I at the end, billionaire boy. And yeah, that is how we conclude the episode for Kat in the Claw, part two. Do y'all have any other thoughts about this or the way that Batman was presented?

I just, I, again, I love that this is the episode where Bruce learns and Batman learns not to be sexist because women can do anything.

And it's not surprising when they can do

Yeah,

we can do anything but get more than eight nominations for Barbie at the Academy Awards.

Seriously,

the, that's the line.

the, that's the absolute line. I got pretty annoyed with Batman in this episode because he's acting like he hasn't had a confrontation with Poison Ivy, who not only managed to knock out Harvey Dent by kissing him. But also nearly killed Batman with [00:38:00] some of the killer plants that she grew in her garden.

So Latoya, me and Steve, we went out of our way to do these episodes in an order that makes the continuity of the show. Makes

Yeah. That's the only way to watch a TE television show really.

yeah, and they're out of order on HBO Max right now. And

what's really crazy about this is that in this episode, Gordon and Batman are like besties and they're talking to each other.

And the episode right after that is on leather wings. The first episode we covered where Gordon is so indifferent to Batman. Oh, you can handle him however you wanna handle him. A SWAT team's too much. But he's this wild card,

I was interested because you guys were talking about a different relationship, so I was like, I was wondering like how, just how order out of order is this show?

Very, especially with the next two that we're about to watch, we get

like suddenly very deep in the quote unquote [00:39:00] season one continuity. That's on max, like the, these first nine episodes or so have been jumping around the first like 20

in some order on the Max app, but after this we're going to like episode 35 and 42 or something crazy like that, and it starts really

jumping around.

Yeah, absurd. Some would it say batty, but I'll leave

I have to, I have to ask, especially Charlie. Did you watch the Batwoman show on the cw?

all right. So I really, really wanted to, but I just, it hurt my heart that it was another Batman show that didn't feature Batman. Did I miss anything?

I mean, the Ruby Rose first season has like ups and downs. She's not in the ups but when Jai Leslie takes over as Batwoman, it's such a, it's a great show. It's, I

put it up there with my beloved legend of tomorrow. So, yeah.

And Bridget Regan plays there. She plays Poison [00:40:00] Ivy in the last season and she's so good.

I love Bridgette Regan, I love her. Anytime she shows up, Jane the Virgin, she's in white collar. She's like, she's like one of those redheads you, you always bring to like stir shit up.

Mm. Love that.

Yeah.

in Jane the Virgin.

I love Jane the Virgin that is on my

top 20 of my favorite shows of all time. I

Oh, really? Very cool.

Oh,

That's one of Erin's like comfort blanket shows. She watches it at least twice a year.

My God. Raphael drool. Oh my God, he's so dreamy. Yeah,

but.

Yes.

Yes.

just think about him on Everwood, where they're like, is he gay? And he was not gay.

that's so funny.

was like the, that was a good

portion of the fourth season of Everwood,

Nineties drama.

all the nineties drama. Oh man. closing thoughts on Catwoman before we go to battering ratings

I mean, yeah, it's I guess it's a, a good introduction, right? It's the introduction without being an origin story. Although I am again fascinated by this interpretation of Selena Kyle. So like, [00:41:00] obviously would wanna see more going forward. I didn't like religiously watch this cartoon as a kid. I think it wasn't necessarily banned in my my home, but it was like, it's kind of violent for, you know, a kid's show.

So it wasn't something like my mother wanted me to be watching and I think I watched more of a Superman, the animated series really.

And that Superman's my guy. So

Love Superman. Justice League Unlimited gets even more violent and it's glorious.

I can totally see where you caught onto the vibes of it all with like the vibes of Catwoman, especially coming off of Batman returns. I, I think now watching it with maybe more critical adult eyes, you see where maybe some of the holes are in the writing and stuff that didn't show up in some of the other better episodes.

Better Two Parters that we watched. I don't think we talked about this much, but I think this, these episodes were strengthened by really good animation in

Hmm.

I thought there were really, really strong animation moments, like the moments of Batman flying in the background while someone [00:42:00] else was doing something. The general way the Catwoman was animated and how she carried herself and how the cat was the entire time. I was so entertained watching the cat react to stuff on a second or third watch through. I think the animation was really top-notch and strengthened it where it may have faltered in other respects.

Yeah. Yeah. And I know we already rated it, but again, that chasing between them and part one, the three part chasing, I thought that that could have stood alone as a short film, almost no dialogue. You just see the different flow of their relationship. It was pretty much their courtship on rooftops of Gotham City, and I thought that the animation team really captured what their dynamic

is about and why people fuck with them as a pairing.

Yeah, that's a, a concept you use to like, sell either like a Batman and Catwoman film or like even a show really.

It's so good. Latoya, would you like to go first in your rating of this second episode?

Yeah. So I, because I [00:43:00] was going to, in my ratings technically put 'em all together, but honestly, this one lowers it. So that's why I was like, I'll just do three for the last one. But this one is a, I'm gonna give it a 2.62.

I can't wait to crop that on camera 0.6. I'll do it. I'm here for it.

I am here

for it too, Steve.

too much red. Too much Red Claw, you know, Zena. Now

I'm just gonna keep leaning into it

Definitely it was giving, it was giving bargain benzina,

There you go. See, he's starting to come

So you see it's Zena.

bit. I'm wearing, I'm

I mean,

you're saying that it

in the

So you're saying it's Zena

In the multiverse where she's not as badass or Lucy Lawless, but,

Charlie Peppers, she's dot, dot, dot Zena.

gets really into Marxism. Yeah.

I don't, I really don't see the Zena. I actually have it all. There's, there's nothing like,

no,

think it was just like

built

long long dark haired woman who had [00:44:00] muscles and I was like, oh, Zeno Warrior Princess. Why not? That's, there's the comp. It's probably

gonna say GI Jane could be a

Chris Rock, say Gi Jane.

no, I'm not trying to get smacked.

The hand goes

through your screen.

Will Smith, how'd you getting here? Keep my Warrior Prince's name out your mouth. Man. Steve.

I, I, I guess I'll actually give my battery grading. Yeah, this one knocks that way down. I'm, I'm at a, I'm at a three batter rings for this one. I don't think it's as bad as some of like the nameless mobster episodes that we've had.

Definitely not as bad as the ones we did last episode, but still, like a, a mediocre three batter rings for me.

I feel bad because I haven't watched the other episodes. So, because usually I would like to have like the context,

so now I, I, I worry that I'm ruining everything.

No,

are.

Latoya, this definitely, you're not missing much context. The biggest thing that you're missing, the two biggest things are that Batman already fought poison ivy,

so he knows that [00:45:00] women can indeed do things like beating

not,

anything, just things. Now he

learns anything.

only thinks that they can grow plants.

Like that's all

that is very womanly. How many a green thumb is what a woman does, unless you're me and you have killed succulents. That's

how bad I am at this.

baby. No.

That used to be a big press gift the networks and studios would send. So I'd get, I had get so many succulents.

I'd kill 'em all. I don't know what I was doing wrong.

You need, you need to have poison ivy as a friend, I, I

I need to have someone date me so they can take care of flowers.

my god.

Yes.

That's what I need.

Yeah. Put that in

Or I need.

to have but staffed so I can ha I need to get staffed so I can get money and I don't have to worry about being in a relationship.

Must have green thumb.

One of

the two.

so my rating, I'm gonna give it three rings, which I think it's good. If it were on tv, I wouldn't turn it off [00:46:00] because I love Catwoman that

Mm-Hmm

But if I didn't love Catwoman as much as I do, it would be two and a half better rings. I think just.

Her being in this episode and also that fabulous chase scene where she is again, like just doing things with Batman and they're working together as a team.

I love them as a duo so much. And we don't really get to see that for a few more episodes. So I'm glad that I got my fix with Kat in the Claw, part one and two.

Latoya, thank you so much for joining us.

Yeah. Thank you guys so much for having me. Honestly.

Latoya, one more time. Before we get outta here, will you just quickly tell people where they can follow you? Where they can find your stuff?

I'm on Twitter and Blue Ski at Largs, L-A-F-E-R-G-S. Usually of course I will post whatever I've been writing promote my podcasts, the Empire Diaries and the Angel on top. And you know, just be like saying again, I'm available for staffing. I, if I sound desperate, [00:47:00] it's because I am, I have a good job.

But you know, I would like to be writing in the room, you know?

Amen. Hey, well we, we we're all about manifesting the things that you want, so we're considering this manifesting via podcast, so we'll, we'll continue to help you manifest by shouting it out via this show for sure.

It is gonna happen this year. It's gonna happen.

We believe.

Yes. Power.

Right on. Well, Latoya, thank you so much for joining us on Charlie and Steve Tuff and talking the cat and the claw parts one and part two with us. We will be back talking about Batman the animated series in the next episode with the two episodes, see no evil and beware the Great Ghost. So for myself, Steve Snick and my good friend Charlie Peppers and our special guest, Latoya Ferguson, we will see you on the

next one. Bye friends.

bye.​