Charlie and Steve Watch Stuff

[00:00:00] Hi

friends. Welcome to Charlie and Steve. Watch

stuff where today we are watching Batman, the animated series. Joining me today, as always, he just finished up his skincare routine. It's my good friend Charlie Peppers. Charlie, how you doing today? I.

Doing well, friend. Can't wait to talk about all things Clayface.

We could all learn a thing a about a strong ointment or two from our guy Clayface. And as we normally do with our two-parter episodes, we're keeping the guest train rolling. We are very pleased to be joined today by filmmaker and my college friend, God, how long ago was that Now? Alex Cantore. Alex, how are you doing today, man? doing great. Thank you guys for having me. And yeah, this episode definitely confirmed my longstanding belief that you just shouldn't put anything from a store on your face. Just don't do it.

Honestly, it's been working for you for this long. If I could grow

hair on my face like that,

I would probably also try to do nothing else but alas, I'm too patchy

Yeah.

Also for our listeners. Yeah, I was just gonna say that your [00:01:00] beard is impeccable. Like what do you do? Do you, do you do a beard oil? Do you? What's your secret?

I told you no products from stores touch my face. Okay. I want

I thought.

clay face. Okay man. It's a huge fear of mine.

All right.

Fair, fair.

I, I, I just got lucky with the

beard thing, but you know, I think it all like grew back into my head. Obviously you can't see me, but I have no hair on my head. It just all started coming outta

my chin. So, you know, you win something, you lose some.

It's the

exchange you have to make. Well, listeners, that's, if you're, you didn't have an excuse to go to our Instagram,

you can go now and, and,

check out what Alex's beautiful face air looks like. Face, air. I'm gonna call it face air from now on. That makes it sound so much weirder than it should. Anyway, let's go talk about Batman and

Clay face we're covering. A two-parter today.

Another great two-parter in Batman, the animated series,

feet of Clay, parts one and two. Alex,

before we get going, I

do

this with all the other guests because they're Charlie's guests, but I didn't do it with you because for some reason I didn't [00:02:00] think of this.

First of all, I usually at this point ask Charlie how he knows this guest that he's bringing onto the podcast. So I, I need us to go back

into our memory dense.

And try

and recall how we first met each other, because as mentioned, you're my college friend. We went to Emerson College in Boston together,

and

I think I know how we know each other, but I am not totally clear on when we actually started hanging out and becoming friends.

Exactly. Do you have a, a clear picture on that? at all.

yeah, I think we know each other because of acapella. Because you started Acapellas Anonymous, right?

I didn't start it, but I was there very close to the

beginning. But yes, that's like my first memory

of you is from wonderfully honest of you.

Yeah, so I was in another group called Emerson College's, noteworthy, shout out to Al Anonymous and noteworthy, I think still existing to this day.

And I think we started hanging out more towards the end of our college time because of Jeff and Pat. I think it.

Jeff and Pat are the connector of all [00:03:00] things. Totally, I, I actually don't think we really started hanging until yeah,

until I moved out to LA through Jeff and Pat. Yeah, so I, I, I don't know. You, you've been in my life for a long time. It's been,

yeah, I know, right?

10, like 12 years or so. You've just kind of

been around and yeah.

It's, it's a cool friendship that has slowly progressed at its own pace to bring us here.

it's, it's

sometimes.

a slow burn is the best burden.

Yeah.

I mean, I much like Charlie. Got as many people into the cult for formerly known as November project as possible. So you guys actually probably came close to overlapping each other in November project, in, in just terms of like the timeline that I convinced both of you to come in and run stairs with me.

I totally agree with that assessment. We started seeing each other a lot more often, and now you live up in the Bay Area, so we've gotten to see each other a bunch of times in person these last couple of months, which has been great.

We are on a hike this past weekend where I [00:04:00] was like, wait a second. You should come be on this podcast with us and be our guest. And lo and behold, here we are. It's really great to have you here and be, before we get into Batman, I would just love to hear about the sort of films that you're currently making.

I know that you're working on a really awesome project. I've seen a result of some of that work a couple years ago at a film festival. I would love to just hear about some of the work you're doing in film right

now.

thanks for asking, man. Yeah, I, I've got a couple projects going on right now. The, the big one is a, a documentary, it's called NI Forever takes place in Hawaii. NIU is the Hawaiian word for coconut. And it's a, it follows a group over the course of about a year. A group that is working to bring back EU as an indigenous food source.

And also bring back native Hawaiian cultural practices around coconuts. 'cause if you go to Hawaii right now, especially if you go to Oahu, you'll see. Thousands and thousands of coconut trees. But most of them don't have coconuts in them. Because of the liability factor of [00:05:00] coconuts falling in, like heavily populated tourist areas.

They actually pay people to go up and take the coconuts out of the trees. So that, you know, nobody gets hurt. But yeah, o over time, that has sort of disconnected a lot of people with this tree that is known throughout the Pacific as the tree of life. The coconut tree is. Prolific, it makes so much fruit has so many different uses from building things out of the wood eating the, you know, the meat, the water in the coconuts yeah, making things out of leaves, baskets, hats, all sorts of stuff.

List goes on and on. But anyway, they're an amazing group of people and they're doing really incredible Grassroots work in their communities to bring back the practice of planting groves and growing the tree for food. So that's the big thing I'm, I'm working on right now. I've also got a music video out right now that my sister, who's a comedian in New York it's called, I Shaved My Pubes for Nothing. And it's about you know, the disappointment, I think of like dating in the, the digital age [00:06:00] and you know, last minute cancellations if, if you will.

So couldn't be more different than the documentary that I'm making, but, I just do whatever feels right, feels fun in the, in the moment.

It

adds variety. Yeah,

I

like it. Well, we'll, we'll make sure that our show notes and our, our posts and all that good stuff have all of the links that you can find, all of Alex's stuff, both the very important documentary work and the also very important examination of why you would shave your pubes and the disappointment that comes from when you can't put that, that freshly saved surface

Steve, we all contain multitudes. And I think that you'll see that in our examination of the clay face episode because certainly clay face contains multitudes.

What a transition. You know what else has layers? A parfait and ain't nobody in their right mind, don't like a parfait. We should watch Shrek. Can we talk about

Shrek? We have, that's one of the

for

Absolutely. Absolutely.

I feel like there would be such a line of people being like, I would like to

[00:07:00] talk about Trek, please, and thank you.

We have to. All right. Let's put that on the list. Anyway, this episode.

We're gonna talk about Batman specifically, the cartoon animated Batman. First episode of two that we're gonna cover is Feet of Clay, part One. It was released on September 8th, 1992. It was directed by Dick CVAs, teleplay by Marv Wolfman, and the story by Marv Wolfman and Michael Reeves.

The plot of the episode is Matt Hagen, A popular actor becomes addicted to a strange chemical formula developed by Roland Daggett's Labs. This chemical gives him the ability to alter his facial features without makeup. Keeping his look so that the public doesn't know he was horribly disfigured in a car accident years ago.

We're gonna jump off with the first Ridler trophy right away. This episode contains a similar subplot to three different Batman properties or Batman adjacent properties, the first one being one of the two Parters that we just covered in two toothface. The structure of these two episodes is actually really, really similar to how the toothface structure was laid [00:08:00] out.

Public persona with something to hide. And in him transforming into something else. And then the next episode, which is kind of jumping ahead, is him trying to take revenge on the people that caused him to transform into said something else. Another plot that this follows is the Plot of The Dark Knight Rises where Roland Daggetts actually involved in the overthrow of Wayne Corp.

This time with Bain and Catwoman instead of Clayface. And the third one is actually the the seminal classic film, one of Charlie's favorites, Catwoman. With Halle Berry, where both stories feature a rejuvenating cream with harmful side effects, addictive properties, and some superhuman enhancement. So lots of Batman was informed both before and after this episode, and I think rightfully so.

And we can get into the plot of the episode right from here we open on the Gotham Island Tramway. We have Bruce Way, and then if this obviously isn't a, a. Video podcast, but I just put very heavy air quotes around Bruce Wayne and Lucius Fox meeting up at 3:00 AM [00:09:00] for a secret exchange, and they're apparently incriminating papers of someone taking over Wayne Corp.

And suddenly Bruce seems to want to kill Lucius Fox and all these goons show up and the guns start firing. And that's what cues Batman. Who that is also the moment you realize this isn't Bruce Wayne. And Batman comes onto the scene as Bruce steps away, and Batman has a lot of trouble with these goons, like more trouble than I've ever seen him have with regular old goons.

I just feel like he has a lot of issues fighting them, and then the, the cops bust in Lucius is like, it

was Bruce

Wayne who set me up. Now here's my question are we just supposed to be led to believe that Lucius doesn't really know about Bruce? The way that, like in the dark night and the Batman begins, like Lucius is in with Bruce right away. He's a character that is in cahoots.

He's helping Bruce make his technology. It, it

kind of surprised me that Lucius wasn't in the know like that. Charlie, do you have any like opinions about how that

[00:10:00] hits you versus the Lucius we see in modern day?

I don't know quite what to think about how much Lucius knows or doesn't know in the Christopher Nolan movies. Lucius is almost like another Alfred. In the Batman AUM games. Lucius is sending Batman equipment and is calling him Bruce and all of that and the cartoon.

I don't, I think we can count on one hand the amount of times we see Lucius Fox show up. Right. Steve?

I mean, we've only seen him twice so far, and he hasn't really done much.

I'm surprised by

the second appearance, him

being so like

duped

by Bruce Wayne because I feel like in all, all the other iterations, Lucius would've been like, you're not Bruce. You're, why are you acting so funny?

Like that definitely wasn't Bruce,

In my head. Canon Lucius in this version of the universe is somebody that quietly funds Bruce's extracurricular activities without knowing what Bruce is doing with the military grade car. Or gadgets or [00:11:00] equipment. Maybe he's suspicious of why Bruce needs millions and millions of dollars to have all of this stuff to himself and him appearing in the darkness of night and acting super shady might be the part of Lucius's brain clicking into place like, oh, I knew you were a shady motherfucker. Why are you funding all of this really? Weird stuff that's off the books of Wayne Enterprises. Alex, what do you think?

That's a good read.

Honestly, I didn't even put together, if I'm being truly honest, I did not put together that this is the same character that is in the, the Christopher Nolan Batman's, you know, because yes, he just seems to have absolutely no idea what's going on. I just kind of, you know, I gather and I have not watched the, the few episodes prior to this where I guess he shows up, but I just. Gathered. Okay. He's like some kind of executive or like board member or something at Wayne Corp. And he

just [00:12:00] trusts Bruce Wayne implicitly enough to walk into this abandoned factory where there's just like boards falling over. yeah.

You know, he's like, what, did we really have to do this right now?

And he's like, yes, Bruce Wayne's like, yes. And he's like, okay, I'll follow you inside. so, yeah, I mean, to me it just looked like, okay, plot device. I didn't even, it didn't even click that. Like this is a. A pretty important character in, in the Batman universe in some tellings.

Well, apparently not to the creators of the animated series. We move right into movie studio the Imperial Pictures Lot, which another Ridler Trophy strikes a. Very close resemblance to the Warner Brothers lot as we, all three of us have seen the Warner's brothers lot. So if you go back and look at that, it does actually look a lot like that lot in Burbank and Matt Hagan soon to be Clayface, also known as Ron Perlman.

The vocal talents of is hiding in his trailer. His body double stand in boyfriend question mark. [00:13:00] We'll talk about that later. Comes in to check on him and he. It has been holding out the last of this cream that he puts on his face because his face is horribly disfigured. And after he puts this cream on his face it gives him 24 hours to look like himself.

A I, I know Charlie says that here in the notes that he likes that the show gets into body dysmorphia, which I didn't even think about as I was watching this. I, although I do like. Get like the vaness of like wanting to keep public perception and keep your life together and stuff like that. But what I was really struck by is that this truly felt like the first time that we were dipping into the supernatural in this show.

And so like we've, we've gotten like jokers, like a, a bridge too far of normal. We've gotten people that are pretending to be supernatural. We have people that have gimmicks that seem supernatural, but they've like scarecrow is just actually science. I. This one, like actually seems like, and [00:14:00] you're gonna see it in the transformation in the clay face.

It sees something beyond just like science. It seems like there's a little something alien going on here. So I as, as touch and go as the animation is in this first episode, which I'm sure we'll also talk about. I do really like how they set this up and how you're kind of like immediately put on edge by like the Oh yeah.

This stuff is, it's almost like a symbio if I'm gonna like, make it like a Marvel connection. It's almost like he's using a symbio too. fix his face.

Yeah, I, I like this better than a symbiote because to me it's him losing himself completely because he doesn't know who he is. He is trying to be what everybody else wants and keeping up with the Joneses of what his face should look like to the point where he doesn't even know what his original face looks like. If I had to apply this to what it feels like being in the gay community in Los Angeles, you have no idea how many gorgeous, gorgeous men I've been around, but. In private, they're talking [00:15:00] about how much Botox, they can't wait to get into their face or how many steroids they have taken to look a certain way.

And it really, it makes me sad that not everybody can see their own beauty and they're trying to look at what other people's concept of beauty is.

I thought this was such a cool theme to have in this show, in this animated show. For kids that they're talking about how addictive that. Can be to try to remain the same way over time. I, I thought, yeah, that's just super poignant and like really deep and it, it comes back later in the second part of the episode when on the, the talk show and, and Clayface shows up, but he's like promoting this product and they even have, you know, he says what it can do, right?

It can. Do for your face what, even plastic surgery can't do. And they cut to the audience and like, there's a whole group of, of people there, mostly [00:16:00] women who are like, oh, that's great. Wow. Oh wow. Oh, oh, I love that. And it just felt like a pretty cool satire of e exactly what you're talking about Charlie at like how there's so much industry around making us feel. than like we should, or we have to look a certain way for everybody else. So, you know, they don't, they don't like hammer on it too hard, but I think it's a really cool subtext to this whole plot and like the genesis of this villain.

That is something that the show has been really good at doing is kind of, well, sometimes it gets a little bit too much of a dare episode or like a Gi Joe's public service announcement or something like that. I'm, I'm struck by the end of this episode called See No Evil, where this little girl is being tricked by.

This invisible man who's actually her estranged father by like giving her presents and stuff like that. And she thinks it's her like invisible friend. And then she's following him up until he tries to get her to get into a [00:17:00] car. and she's like, oh, I'm not supposed to get in cars with strangers.

And then, and then he takes his mask off and reveals that it's him. And he is like, oh. And she's like, oh, I'm especially not to get, supposed to get into a car with a strange man like you. And then she like, runs away and no harm becomes her. And I was like, okay. So that's, that's a service announcement. But yeah, this one definitely more nuanced and maybe not something that like 6-year-old Steve would've caught, but definitely something that 34-year-old Steve can appreciate a little bit more now, which is half the fun of doing a podcast like this.

Well, let's talk about the, the cream maker, for lack of a better term, Dagg. It is running a whole factory producing this cream and very correctly predicts that Hagen is going to come to him once he's out of the stuff. He knows that. What it can do. Very much so like the end of one of those infomercials about a drug where they actually spend 66% of the commercial listing off all of the side effects that are gonna happen when you take the drug for this very small thing that you're trying to treat.

He's like, oh no, he's coming back and like [00:18:00] clockwork. I thought Hagen was gonna like do some trickery, maybe like do some acting. My guy, just like bull runs straight in through the front fucking door. And just starts slathering it all over his face, just like, just scooping as much as he can onto his face.

I was shocked by this and just absolutely put himself out to, to pasture. Really?

it's addiction. Steve, this is addiction.

That was somebody a addicted to a drug or not even so much of a drug. He's a. Addicted to an idea of himself at the detriment of his own wellbeing. It's self-destructive. It made me sad and what especially made me sad is what they did to him when they,

that was

really hard. It was

mean.

my guy

down.

was mean.

wait, can I, it's wrong. That whole thing is messed up, but like I did think it was kind of funny that this like very significant villain was. Created, like his [00:19:00] origin story is in this moment where he goes in there to, to get more of this cream. The, like the henchmen are waiting for him. They like kind of beat him up. And then because of this one minor hench men's like kind of random sadism, he literally goes, hold him down. Wait, I have an idea. And he goes and runs over and grabs like a vat of the cream and just starts pouring it down his throat. But it's. But the, the setup for that is, wait, I have an idea.

Like there's no real reason for this at all. And then he just does this terrible thing to him, and that's how Clayface is born. Like, it felt like to me, just such a, I don't know, like a throwaway kind of line. They were like, okay, well now we need him to become clayface somehow. So yeah, let's have this guy just be an asshole.

You know? Okay.

You know what would've made that more tragic and more interesting? I think it could have started out like an accident. Maybe some of it got. Dumped onto Clayface by accident, by one of the goons throwing [00:20:00] him. Then the Goons exchange, a silent look and all of them pick up some of it and they just start throwing it on him. And that's how Clayface is born. Kind of more of a mob mentality than, oh, hey, I got an idea, you know, but then again, this is a cartoon, so I, I, I guess they wanted the kids to understand

A

cartoon that we just gave credit for having a wonderful undertone of love. Your body.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, I,

I do totally get

that. Like, sometimes the plot needs to move forward and like that can happen with one line, and I forgive it, but I did have to point it out because I was like, this whole

thing is that guy's fault. That that one random

totally. and then they do things like quote Shakespeare and name their episode after a Bible verse and stuff like that. There's definitely like the, we can have both of our cakes and eat it. Both the, the kids can watch and then the adults can appreciate, which I feel like it's, it's early on, something like that.

I think at this point in the early nineties, you didn't have a lot of. [00:21:00] Crossover of stuff that could speak to adults and speak to kids at the same time, which is partially why we love doing this so much.

And I also did say at this moment in my notes that A, these guys must be really strong because they just like, one of them just holds this dude down and that the brains did not come with a Braun because that is a stupid fucking idea. My dude. Like, if, why, why would you wanna overdose the person with the thing that changes what they look like?

I just, that's, yeah. It's a stupid idea, but a stupid idea that bore clayface. So I guess we're thankful for it.

Also, it's a waste of money. Isn't that inexpensive product?

I was thinking

Yeah. Daggett would be pissed. Well, We go into Detective Batman, who has reached. A new level of detective prowess because he fingerprinted somebody by the feel of his jaw. He literally figures out who the henchey is because he is like, I've punched that jaw before, and he's like, uses his detective know-how to figure out [00:22:00] who the goon is, which is ama like incredible like

yeah, sure, why not?

Not gonna lie. My horny ass, as soon as he said that I lifted a brow, I'm like, oh, that's what his Fisk can do. I wonder what that dick do. It just, oh, I felt this hole before. It must be, sorry

I had to go

His process of recognition

It goes deeper

than a fingerprint.

Literally

I

also just wanna say that in that scene, and I don't know 'cause you guys have been obviously watching through this, so I don't know if this is always the case, but I

do love that when Batman is doing his detective work in the bat cave with the no one else around but Alfred. He wears his entire suit and a mask while he's sitting at his computer.

Like, I don't know if That's a thing,

hilarious.

that that's how he gets in the mood, but like he's alone. No one there is gonna see that he's

Literally, no, it's there. [00:23:00]

on. So, I don't know. I I just, I just wanted to bring it up. I didn't know if it was a, if it was a regular thing, if we ever see him as Bruce Wayne in the back cave.

cause I just thought that was hilarious.

This is incredible.

Hmm. That's something to think about.

Now I'm gonna be on Bruce watch in the bat cave.

does it tie in somehow with this like, self-image theme we're talking about? Like he, he's gotta, for him to be able to do that

job, he has to dress up like the Batman, even when he's alone at his computer.

I know in season three, there's a moment where he is just dressed from head to toe like Bruce Wayne, but there's a reason for that in the story, and I'm not gonna say I. What it is until we reach it, and I'm gonna call back this episode, but an

important note while Batman, while Bruce is always dressed up like Batman, he does take phone calls for Bruce in the Batcave and he uses his Bruce Wayne voice while dressed up like Batman. 'cause I think that in this. Phase of the show. Bruce is [00:24:00] more Bruce than he is Batman at this point

Batman is now pursuing the goon that he. Is pretending to put an all points bulletin on. He uses some of his tech because he knows that this is the goon that always has the headphones on. That's listening to the police scanner at all times. So he thinks that the cops were out after him and he uses the bat wing first of all, why he didn't just like stealth the bat wing and follow him to wherever he was going.

Dunno why he needed to just totally buzz and intimidate the guy. But I guess we get a good moment of like Mad Batman. Doing his intimidation thing, and this is this whole scene where he like flies into the tunnel and he picks up the car and he extracts the goon from the car and he is literally like doing flips with this guy holding on to, with like a claw from the the bat wing until he passes out and then he just tosses him in the pool.

I thought that could have been one of the coolest scenes we've ever had. In the series and it looked terrible. It looked terrible. It looked like [00:25:00] I've, I feel like even the scene that the, the creators referenced at the end of CAT and MCC Claw when Batman's driving the truck out with all the flames and the explosions, and I thought that looked cooler and they complained about that one looking bad.

There is a rhythm trophy that I'm gonna touch on a little bit more because I think the animation improves very much in the second. Episode compared to the first episode, and there's some discourse about the studio that did this first episode versus the second one and how it kind of convinced them to stop letting different studios do two parters moving forward, because the, the visual difference between these two episodes is truly striking, almost from the onset.

But he. I guess get some information about who was interrogating Fox at the start. Sort of not really. Kind of passes out too soon. Again, the cops were like, let him go Batman. And Batman's like, okay. And then he does. And the cops are like, okay, see ya. Thanks for the bad guy. Don't worry about all that other shit you

Yeah. this is when I would be more [00:26:00] on Bullock side. With, oh fuck, Batman. That was a little too extreme Usually I'm on Batman's side like 95% of the time, but this 5%, I'm like, Hmm. But to challenge myself, to play devil's advocate against my own self, Bruce is pissed off because it's his face that was used.

For the thing that happened, and I think that that's what's causing him to be a little sloppier than usual when he's going about these things. I mean, Steve, if you were framed but you had a different persona that could clear your name, wouldn't you go a little ape shit.

It is true a little bit. the anger is warranted and I think the animation ruins it a little bit. Frankly,

It was

it, it was a little silly. It could have been cooler. It could have been smoother. Honestly, it just felt blocky to me, especially after watching the next episode where like we get some of the coolest shots in the entire show, in my opinion.

But just to close out the episode, Bruce, who I thought for a second was Clayface sneaking into Fox's hospital room, panics and calls the cops on Bruce, where [00:27:00] he's arrested. I. And Hagen's blob, which was then like, oh, that wasn't Clayface. That was actually Bruce Wayne doing his thing, getting arrested is found in his car and he's now clayface.

You get a shot of him seeing his new face in the rear view mirror of his car. And this scream of agony as he realizes that he's forever changed. Before we get into our final ratings for this episode, is there anything else you wanna say on part one of Feet of Clay?

This is a really great table setting episode. I don't think that it is a banger because it's mostly set up for a lot of the brilliant payoff that we're gonna get in Clayface. Second episode, I'm gonna give this three and a half better rings. I think it's good. Kind of on the precipice of being great, but they're mostly just putting the pieces in order to knock it out of the park.

Yeah, I would agree with that, I'm, I'm in the same ballpark. I. I feel like the story of this episode is really cool. Especially not having watched this show for quite a while, really since I was a [00:28:00] kid. Coming in and seeing like this complex of a story set up was pretty cool. I do agree with you, Steve, that like A couple of the animation flubs really threw me off. Like I didn't talk about it before, but in the beginning, in that fight scene when he said Batman has a ton of trouble with these random goons, like there is just an absolutely terrible take down of Batman, where this guy on the floor just like does a juujitsu take down of him and he just falls over like a tree.

It just kicks his leg.

bad. So there were a few of those that, yeah, I feel like kind of interrupted the drama, but Storywise, really cool. So yeah, my, my gut was to, to give it a three. And I think that's keeping in mind like how much I really did like the next episode, so I'll leave it there.

Great. I am on with Charlie on this one also with three and a half battering rating for me. I do think if the animation was stronger, it probably would've gotten into that four, four and a half range pretty easily, but pretty on the lines with what you guys all said. Totally agree with all that, and [00:29:00] so we can move right into episode two. This is Feet of Clay, part two, released the next day in real life, September 9th, 1992, and the plot of this episode is knowing that his career as an actor and personal life are ruined. Clay Face, formerly known as Matt Hagen, seeks revenge against the man responsible Roland Daggett.

Batman continues his investigation on the murder attempt of Lucius Fox, and he soon confronts Clayface, who has the ability to morph into any shape he desires. This one was directed by Kevin Al Terry Teleplay by Michael Reeves, and the story again by Marv Wolfman and Michael Reeves. Now we have the opening here where Bruce is getting his mugshot taken and he's escorted home by Alfred.

After a brief stint in jail, he changes into Batman in the back of his car, and he's back at Warner Brothers. I mean, Imperial Movie Studios. We also see full-bodied clayface whose stand in is trying to convince him that he isn't washed up. He still can do the thing, it can transform into any of the, the faces that he wants.

We also get a [00:30:00] quick little backstory of Clayface and Dagg it and how their relationship got started after Clayface had that accident that left his face, disfigured and daggett kind of like getting the, the hook line and sinker out and. getting him to buy into this little scheme that he's getting Hagen involved with.

And as Clayface is starting to discover his power set and the fact that he can transform his faces and his clothing and his fists, I think the fist especially is like a preview for what's to come. The standard's like really, really cool with it and is kind of encouraging him to be like, you can be.

Whatever you wanna be. And the stand-ins name is Teddy. I haven't been getting Teddy his name yet. And according to Kevin Terri, the director of this episode, as said on Batman, the animated podcast that Teddy Lupus and Matt Hagen were in a relationship. They were boyfriends. And it's a tragic, he's quoted saying it's a tragic end, but again, for only, well, God, for Teddy, his partner, his boyfriend, and that was an [00:31:00] intentionally a, as he says, a gay relationship as well.

Charlie, did you get those vibes at all? I didn't get those vibes at all.

I completely missed it. I, I just think that these. Shows. I mean, apart from the Batman and Robin of it all, which as we've discussed in our intro episode, I don't see the queerness of that relationship. So outside of what people read into with Robin, I've just put on my hetero blinders with this cartoon because it just feels so straight to a fault that even when I. Saw the intimate touch of the arm. I just thought, oh, they're like brothers,

Yeah, so Alex, talk about that. You said you caught a moment in the scene that kind of made you think

that.

yeah, yeah. There's the one shot. It's after Clayface is discovering his, his new powers and lupus is like, well see, look, you can still, you can still do it. You can still be an actor. Like, it's not over for us. And there's one shot where he comes in and yeah, like, just like wraps himself up [00:32:00] around Hagan's bicep like you might do with a lover.

Like, he just gets very close to him. And I was like, huh, that's, that's different than I expected from, from this cartoon. I didn't like read super deep into it, but it did. I watched the episode twice and both times I was like, that seems to be really intentional that they would show that, right? Like it didn't need to be that level of, of intimacy. So yeah, that, that's pretty cool. And then looking at it like I. More over in the context of the entire two episodes, like you do see that lupus is incredibly dedicated to Hagen throughout. Like he's really, I mean, this guy is a giant blob of terrifying clay and he's got nothing but love. Like lupus has nothing but love for him.

So I can see it. Yeah.

the whole time.

like that doesn't surprise me.

Literally, at no point does he turn heel at all, which is actually incredible considering the stuff that he sees his partner do.

let's dig deeper though. if we're gonna read into the queer subtext, [00:33:00] which is one of my. Favorite things isn't being queer in a society that doesn't accept you all about code switching and shifting with the group that you're around. Maybe his boyfriend got it because he's had to do some social or intellectual or behavioral form of that.

Fuck.

That's awesome. I mean that, that

gives a lot more depth to the entire idea

of Hagan having to keep his image up.

Yeah. In a, in a different world. Teddy could be like, daddy, let's go back to the factory. Dump it on me too. We can both be clay monsters. We can both be code switching and just Robin

Banks

interface.

We can clay interface a literal power couple.

Clayface rolling up to the hospital to, to stake out Fox from the assassin that Daggett is sending his way. He knows that if he can take over the [00:34:00] assassin's persona.

He can get into Daggett untouched and take his revenge on the person who caused him to be the way he is. Batman is here too. And apparently the henchie who is the assassin is germ phobic because he doesn't want to. Go to the hospital and Batman uses the intimidation of a viral plague, which is actually just seawater, which I thought was amazing to, to get information out of the henchey.

But just as he's going to get all the information that he needs out of the henchey Clayface disguised as a cop, throws Batman away and takes his man for himself. I actually really liked how he did this, because Batman's gonna be inclined to. maybe not obey the police officer, but would like at least be disarmed by him for a second because he like has that relationship.

He's like, no, no, no, hold on. Like I gotta get something outta this guy. And that was the window that Clayface needed to kind of start throwing his power set at Batman. And they have this fight on the roof [00:35:00] over, over germs is his name. I loved, loved. And, and this was one of the first scenes that really started to elevate the episode for me.

I loved how Batman reacted to Clayface transforming, where he's like, what in the world? Like, that was my kind of adding to my, like, this is the first time that Batman's encountering something more supernatural that he's not expecting. I think anytime you can surprise, Batman is a really good moment and I, I really liked how this surprised him.

Yeah, I love that In these early episodes, we just get to see Bruce's world getting cracked open. I mean, Steve, wait till Bruce starts fucking dealing with aliens. But by the time he's dealing with aliens, Bruce is so jaded it doesn't phase up. So it's fun to see Bruce get phased by this when he deals with far, far wilder shit and within the same universe.

It, it's really wild.

For me, again, not having the context of like this [00:36:00] buildup of this world you know, not having watched the few episodes before this and, but just knowing Batman, I was kinda like, oh, why is he, why is he so fazed by this? But that is, that is really cool that, you're seeing Bruce or Batman get tripped up by these things as the sort of level of his enemies is advancing or is growing in, in the series. Because that moment to struck me as like, you're fucking Batman. Like, what are you, what are you worried about? This shit happens all the time.

He did react less to a giant Venus fly trap than he did to Clayface. But I don't know. I feel like I'd be more ready to believe that there's a little shop of horrors like monster in a crazy flower Ladies. Greenhouse before there was a man who could literally change his face and like create a mace out of his fist.

But Clayface does escape by just jumping wholesale off the roof and splatting onto the ground and slithering into the drain, which I thought was absolutely [00:37:00] incredible. And learning of the upcoming appearance on television by Daggett, which Alex referred to earlier in the episode that we're gonna get to Clayface is off to pursue him, and he gets into the audience and pretends to be I, I don't know if, I just feel like if you ask me to show me a picture of a Karen, this is probably the image that I would've shown you, is the woman that he pretends to be in the q and a where.

At first you think it's someone with like, legit concerns and you can tell Daggett's like, oh no, like, this person knows stuff about this product and, and whatever. And he is trying to pr around it. And then he, he gets up in front of the off audience and transforms in front of the whole crowd. And Batman is also there and prevents Clayface from killing Daggett.

We get a couple of amazing power set moves by Clayface here. An homage to, well, not an homage, I would say that Batman Ham City is an homage to this show. Where we get rolling Clay face where you have, that's something that you have to dodge in that fight against him. I guess spoilers for the end of Comb [00:38:00] City.

You fight clay face at the end, whatever, if you haven't played that game by now. I, I guess I'm not that sorry. And also just the, the one of him throwing his hand at Batman and having him get stuck to the wall and stuff like that. I think, I think this is like. Where the animation really starts to shine to.

And all of the transformations that he does, all of the power sets that he shows off all leading up into Batman, luring him into a screen room where he starts showing off all of the faces that he's previously played because he learns that his transformations are reactionary and he can't really control them if he gets overwhelmed and he can't focus, and it takes a lot out of him.

And so he is wildly transferring from person to person and it's honestly, in my opinion, the best bit of animation the show's ever done. Charlie, do

you agree or disagree with

agreed. Just seeing him turn around in all the different phases, peeling off, it's, it's scary. Airy. It's badass. It's deeply [00:39:00] tragic. 'cause what we're seeing is somebody have a nervous breakdown more of an existential crisis about who they are. If we're gonna put more of a philosophical underpinning on this

yeah, I mean that whole fight sequence is incredible. It's super fun. The score, I loved the score. It was so good during that piece. But yeah, when they get into the like, TV control room, this was one of my favorite moments in the episode. 'cause Batman says something like. Before Clayface starts to rapidly rotate between all of these characters that he used to play, Batman just pulls up one character, first on the screens and he says, he's like, Hagan you don't need to do this. You can still be an actor or something like that. He, he's like, or you can still be like the man that you were.

And it seems to be this moment of Batman, like genuinely giving him a chance to to stop like this madness. And it brought me back to. We, we kind of jumped over it before, but [00:40:00] the scene between Hagan and Lupus at the end of that scene. I watched this second part episode with my girlfriend and she had not watched the first part.

I briefly explained to her what was going on. That's right in the beginning of the episode. But at the end of that scene, Clayface goes. When he's just like, completely had it and he's like, my life is over. He said, I'm not an actor anymore. I'm not even a man. And he like, gets down on the ground. And Emily, my girlfriend, who again only has five minutes worth of investment in this show is like, oh my God, I feel so bad for him. Like they did

Right,

right.

at making you empathize with his character in there. And so I love that

moment. Where Batman actually gives him a chance to, to step back and stop what he's doing. Yeah, it was, it was cool.

I want a yes. And two things that you said there. You uncovered a Riddler trophy because part two was actually nominated for a daytime Emmy award for outstanding music direction and composition.

So

good.

calling out the score there, yeah. Is is um, the composer, Shirley Walker said it was [00:41:00] very demanding story-wise, and there was so much going on and that she was really, really proud of it, which is why she ended up submitting it for Emmy consideration, which it was nominated

for, which is really, really cool.

And then I, you also reminded me of a scene that I, I sort of glossed over this during the rooftop fight scene, and it's a running theme between me and Charlie talking about why we love the show. And one of the reasons is that Batman is so empathetic towards his villains and his adversaries, and he's.

His first thought is not necessarily, well, not always to necessarily beat them into a pulp, I think he steps into this a little bit earlier on the rooftop fight where Clayface exhausts himself from overusing his transformation and instead of Batman taking advantage of it and like beating him down, he just goes, oh, that really takes a lot out of you, doesn't it?

And this immediately shows this care for the person showing the curiosity for what's going on with them instead

of just this like. Blind need for justice. I guess

that only counts for Catwoman because my guy hates getting laid. But anyway, that's,

I

guess that's besides the point. And then we kind of get a [00:42:00] finale where you, I, I mean, I for a second was like, are they killing him right now?

Are they actually, so I guess they, they do a really good job of subverting our expectations there. And the actor pulls off one more final deception and the episode ends with us knowing that Clayface is still out there, which of course he is. You, you can't take an iconic character like Clayface and only have him in for two episodes.

So, that's gonna take us into our, our final thoughts and battering ratings for part two of feet of clay. And I'm gonna start us off because I haven't been able to lead off with a rating like this before. And I'm going to bestow feet of clay part two with a five battering rating. I fucking loved this episode.

I was transfixed by this episode. This was by far the, the top of the bar for animation. I thought the story was beautiful. I thought it did. This version of the story better than Two-Face did. And honestly, this and Heart of Ice are, are now [00:43:00] kind of my, my standard bearers for what I want out of the show moving forward.

So, yeah, it's, it's five batter rings for me. I loved it, loved it, loved it, loved it. Alex, go ahead, man.

Yeah, I, I, I also loved it. I, I was engaged the whole time. Like I said, I watched it twice just 'cause I wanted to. And you know, the only other thing that I'll say about this pair of episodes before I give my batang rating is that I just found it kind of, kind of funny that Batman truly just gets his ass kicked. Through these two episodes. He doesn't really like, have any physical victories. I just wanted to point that out. Is awesome, but I, it does sometimes feel like Batman's kind of just there and then the stuff happened. But yeah, love the, love the, the empathy for the villain. That's, that's my favorite thing in any storytelling.

Like real life is not Good people versus bad people. It's a lot of different people. Thinking they're doing the right thing and maybe being misguided. And I feel like you, that really comes through in this [00:44:00] episode. And it was just super fun. You know, I can't give it a five because look, I'm just here for these two episodes.

Like, you know, I got nothing to compare it to, so I'm gonna give it a four and a half battering rating. I, I thought it was great.

That's very fair. I'm gonna come in and. I'm gonna match Steve. This is a five battering score for me, baby. I, love the breakdown in the room with all the TVs for that scene alone. I think that this episode is one of the greatest in the series, animation wise, the character of Clayface, how they completely transformed him from what he was in the comics, I think. The most successful episodes of the show are the ones where the creators and the writers get to cook with different villains and have their interpretations of them. It worked for two phase, it worked for Mr. Freeze and now they're doing it with Clayface. Ironically, when it comes to the Joker, and we're coming up on what I think might be one of the joker's best, if not his best [00:45:00] ever episode in the animated series. When the creators try to stick to what the audience wants a character or villain to be, I don't think they quite stick the landing, but when they run wild and swing wide and hard for the fences, they get masterpieces like this one.

Well said my friend. And that's gonna do it for our coverage of these two episodes of Batman, the animated series. We watched Feet of Clay, parts one and part two. I wanna extend a a another sincere and special thank you to my friend Alex for coming out and joining us on this episode. Alex, before we go, can you please tell all the people where they can find you on the social medias and all of that other good stuff?

sure. Yeah, I'm quick act casual on the social media. You can just put that into Google and you'll, you'll find me somewhere. Thank you guys both so much for having me. This was super, super fun.

We loved

having you

We'd love to have you for sure, and I'm gonna put you on the spot will. You actually tell us the origins of that, of your

quick deck Casual

handle.

That goes all the way [00:46:00] back to probably sixth grade for me with a couple of my good buddies. It is something that we would say when we were doing something bad, when we were doing something we were not supposed to. Maybe we were out in the hall during class or we were just, you know, screwing around in some way.

And then an authority figure was coming by, someone would say, quick act casual. And what that meant was that. you can't see this, but we would, we would put one hand on our head like this. My hand is like, my wrist is on my forehead, kinda looks like a quail. And then my, my other hand is on my butt, kinda looks like a, a bird tail.

And for some reason that was acting casual. It was sort of like a kind of innocuous,

very not

innocuous stupid thing. If, you know, a teacher came around the corner, we are all cracking up laughing, doing this stupid thing and they're like, okay, well they're doing that.

That's weird, but it's not like wrong. And that would distract from whatever actual wrong thing we were doing. and for [00:47:00] some reason, that's literally the legal name of my production company now. So.

Incredible. Well, we'll make sure we have all that in the show notes for you all to find. And yeah, man, thanks again for spending some time talking about an animated cartoon superhero

with us. That's going to do it for this episode of Charlie and Steve. Watch stuff. Next time we'll be back with Joker's favor.

I believe that is

That's the episode I can't wait to talk about it.

Very cool. So we'll have joker's favor and we'll have vendetta on the next episode that we cover. Batman, the Animated series for myself and my good friend Charlie Peppers. We will see you on the next one. Bye friends.