Charlie and Steve Watch Stuff

[00:00:00]

Hello everybody. Welcome to

Charlie and Steve Wat stuff, a podcast where Charlie and Steve Wat stuff? Usually I'm joined by Steve

Snick, but today I'm joined by my friends Ricardo and

h Allen. How are you both doing

Miserable.

hey.

Miserable. We appreciate the honesty.

So

the honor.

just to let our,

listeners know, Ricardo, how did we meet?

Charlie, I think you and I met through November project a few years ago, actually many years ago. November project's a running group where a bunch of people get together Wednesday mornings and we go running Griffith Observatory or Hollywood Bowls.

Absolutely. Yeah. Ricardo, I

remember you just being an extremely fast runner.

Well,

I like running,

Yeah. He's like the flash, but real.

I flash

Oh, the only, the only thing I run.

from is like, well, people wanting money from me or like, [00:01:00] I don't, I don't, I don't run, I don't run.

Ricardo, tell us what you do in the industry.

Yeah, so I produce a nonfiction television. I'm a freelance producer and yeah, currently working on a project for Disney plus. I recently just finished a project for Apple TV plus about Leo Messi and his career and his win, you know, world Cup win for Argentina.

Are you Argentinian?

No, I'm actually Mexican. I, I'm from s Juarez, Mexico, which is right in the border with El Paso, Texas. Nice. up in Juarez then lived in Orlando for three years, which is where I went to school. And I've been out here in LA for 10

Oh wow. Lovely.

Very

cool. H Allen, how did we meet? Well, I I think

I just loved you from afar before messaging you and

I think we're internet friends. I mean, we have so many people in common, and I mean, I'm a writer comedian, so like, you know, I've, I've, I [00:02:00] essentially, I've slept with everybody basically considering what I do, but not literally, like I, you sleep with one person, you sleep with everybody in Hollywood.

and especially in the industry.

I, no, I, yeah, no, I think we're internet friends, we, we for years and, and so yes, that's how it works and that's why I'm here, which I love. Hey.

Y'all are in for a great show. The two men that I have with me have impeccable taste and whenever they describe all things pop culture, film, and tv, my eyes are glued to my IG story or Facebook or what have you. Just

because the way that they talk about art is Chef's kiss. So we're gonna jump into it.

I have a little bit of an icebreaker for both of you, and either one of you can jump in first, whoever feels like it. What is the first movie? You remember capturing your imagination as a kid?

Jurassic Park?

Oh, that's good. Why Jurassic Park?

No, just the idea of like handling the animals and like taking care of 'em. I remember telling an aunt. Like, oh, I wish, I wish I could just work in a [00:03:00] zoo without had dinosaurs and

You know what's interesting about Jurassic Park that pisses

me off is that it, like literally, they, they should have seen all the drama that came with Jurassic Park coming because only 12 people worked in a fucking park with dinosaurs. Oh, can I cuss? I don't know. Can I cuss here? But literally, if you think

about it, it's like, and, and the major guy who's running the park, like walks with a cane.

I mean, I'm not an ableist, but I think if there's dinosaurs involved, you need someone fit to be able to handle all those dinosaurs. Like they needed more staff.

well, like Charlie said, I'm a good runner, so maybe, I don't know, it's a sweet memory 'cause my aunt, basically told me, well, there's no dinosaurs, but you can work in the types of. Productions that do movies like this, like the di Imaginary Dinosaurs.

So I do owe, you know, a little bit to her in that comment, you know, and now we're here, you know, I'm not working in big, you know, blockbuster

action movies, but I am, you know, in the industry and sort of yet, no, I'm actually super happy working in Docs and like nonfiction. Not to get sidetracked, but people ask [00:04:00] me if I've ever considered, you know, switching to scripted or narrative. But I'm very happy with what I do just being able to be part of telling, you know, stories of real people. But any who, to answer your question Charlie Jurassic Park for me.

Okay. H Allen.

My, I'm torn. So like, my, my gut is saying death becomes her because I watched it last night and I remember watching it as a kid, and it, I have fond memories of it, but I have to say, like, the one that probably like really lit a lot of fires for me would be the bird cage. Just because it encapsulates so much of my career.

Even now in terms of my voice, my point of view, what I do, I mean, I do drag as well, so like I, and I'm a writer comedian, so like there's standup involved and I ob I'm obsessed with Mike Nichols and Elaine Mae. And Elaine Mae wrote the film and it's adapted from obviously a musical laja fall and like all the things, but the bird cage and the rhythm of the bird cage and the acting and sort of just like the point of view and all of it is so. Me and now I'm, I used to, I remember [00:05:00] when I was a kid, I was afraid of becoming the Nathan Lane character because he was painted as, I mean, he was the funniest character, I think, but he also was painted as sort of a, a joke or the butt of the joke in a lot of ways, but not, I mean, I, I don't even think that's next to necessarily justified.

But anyway, I was terrified as a young gay person of becoming Nathan Lane in the bird cage. And now I quite literally have become Nathan Lane's character in the bird cage to the point where like my, my boyfriend makes all of my drag looks and like, is basically usher, like, it basically is sort of the, the, the drag king to my queen.

And so there we even have that relationship that the two have in the film. So I have literally become Nathan Lane from the bird cage. So I, yeah, the bird cage is definitely the one for me.

That's amazing. All right, so the film that captured my imagination as a kid, and we've covered it on the pod, is Batman Returns, love that film so much, and.

Can we, oh my God. Please continue. But I have something to say.

Yeah, please. I can't wait for you to say it. [00:06:00] So whenever I would watch Michelle Pfeiffer's performance es Catwoman, something happened to me as a little boy on a molecular level, on a molecular fucking level. Still think that she should have been nominated for an Oscar for that That's what I,

was gonna say. That's what I was gonna say. I think that that, that Oscar, now,

I'm, I'm, I, I love the Oscars and I, you know, I obsessively watched and study them, but with her not being, she was nominated that year for an Oscar the year that Batman Returns came

out. But she was nominated for a film.

Yes. She was nominated for best actress for a small film called Love Field, which was a beautiful film about a woman who's obsessed with Jackie o. And then when JFK gets assassinated, she decides to go to the funeral. But on the way she. Meets a black man and a and his daughter, and they're having trouble and it's very much white savior.

So it's, it's, it's kind of a complicated film. I don't know if it's necessarily white savior, but it's a complicated film to watch with a modern view. That said

she

was nominated for that film, and I

remember being this

tiny little faggot, being so angry

about her [00:07:00] getting nominated for that film and not Batman Returns.

And then years later, fucking, I mean, RIP, but

fucking Heath Ledger, getting an Oscar for playing the Joker. And I'm like, it's only because Michelle Pfeiffer

opened the door. for you Mi, Mr. Mr. Man. Like, no,

no, Michelle Pfeiffer deserves that Oscar nomination. Sorry, I no, no, no.

no, no. To and yes, and to what you said. As a little queer kid, before I knew what being queer meant, that performance spoke to me because it's a coming out story. an old version of herself dies and she reemerges as a more free expression of herself and I even to this and so hot and like

So hot.

Let's go into these nominees for the Oscars, I think, and I'm sure that you're both gonna agree, but if you don't agree, that's great as well. This was a really great year for movies. I think this is,

I ask a question?

I think so too.

I would, I mean, one of the things that I was thinking going into this is like, [00:08:00] and I've been doing this with a lot of friends and I feel like it's a fun thing to do of all of the Oscar

movies this year, and this is similar to your question that you asked Charlie too. What, what film that's nominated this year for any category represents you.

I Oh shit.

Okay.

it's, I feel like it says so much about

your taste and your

point of view, and I think it's important to lead off a conversation about the Oscars with this question.

Since you threw the question in there, I want you to answer it first.

Oh, I'm ready. I've been ready. Trust me. I mean, trust me. I came, I came guns ready I loved a lot of films this year. I did. But I would say the one that probably represents me the most, and it's not flattering at all, is anatomy of a fall.

Holy shit.

and I

know, I know, I know it's not good.

But I do, I say no a lot and I'm one of those people that I don't care

if someone

doesn't like me. And so I tend to be the character in anatomy about a fall where I'm just like, well, fuck you. I'm still gonna do me. [00:09:00] Like, I'm

not, I'm not gonna stop doing me. And so, and she sort of

is that

character where she's just like. Well, fuck you. If you think I

murdered my husband, I didn't. And I'm still gonna do me. And guess what? I'm gonna talk about my affairs and how much I

hated my husband and all of those things. And I don't care if that

bitch is dead. And it was an

accident still. he probably

camil killed himself.

I don't know, but I didn't do it.

That would be

me if

someone pegged a murder on me. And I would be like, I didn't do it, but I

would not

be like, I would be a lawyer's nightmare because I would be the person that would be out there being like,

well, fuck you.

Not that. Not that.

yeah,

So that, that's such an interesting question. You know, what, which of the nominated films I think represents me? You know, I think the first one that popped in my head is Oppenheimer. I think it's about, you know, someone with a vision. Not doing it alone, doing it with a team of people. I. And it's so much of, you know, my life, you know, it's, it's a lot of like sharing moments, experiences work with others, you know, whether it's family, your close friends, you're gay, your [00:10:00] chosen family.

So I think, yeah, I think for that reason I would say Oppenheimer, it's just working together towards a common goal. For example, here we are this morning, three of us working for this podcast and making it happen. So yeah, I would say Oppenheimer

You know what I'm gonna say? I'm

gonna do a two-hander. There are two films that I think represent me. The first film is American Fiction, and the second film is Barbie.

I'm just glad nobody said zone of interest.

Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely

not

I mean, not cause it was bad film, but because it would be awkward.

Oh, it would be very

awkward. It would be like, we do like the polite American pause when something bumps you, but you don't wanna like, like really the Jew in the room, I would definitely be like, bye.

Fine.

HL has left the chat. He's left the chat,

ladies and gentlemen.

Barbie, because of its unadulterated optimism, I like to go through my life with my head held high, [00:11:00] seeing the best in people, and really just going for what I want. And that is something that I'll speak about when it's time for us to get into Barbie that really spoke to me about that movie.

I thought that it was uncomplicated. And its view of the world, but I still feel that it had depth in certain ways that I wasn't expecting. And that really impressed me on a certain level, American fiction, for the way that it dissected the nuances of blackness. I thought that that was really cool.

My favorite scene in American fiction is the scene when Issa Rae is having lunch with the main character. I thought that that was really cool. And they talk about what does it mean when somebody says that you have potential? Are they saying that what they see in

front of them isn't good enough and that one day it might be good enough?

What does it mean when black people like a certain type of media that isn't as accessible to the masses or the white audiences writ large? I thought that that was really cool.

I loved American fiction so much. Literally one of the best scripts of the [00:12:00] year.

Oh, absolutely. I read it. It was so good. And Cord Jefferson is so talented. I saw him do a talk back on the film and the way that he spoke about it was really, really cool that's a good way for us to get into this. So, of the best picture nominees, question for both of you. Tell me, which film do you think will win and which film do you think should win?

I think we can all agree that it's very likely

Oh, without a doubt.

year. So I think that'll win. I mean, if I could, you know, hand the Oscar to one of those movies, I think I'd give it to poor things. To what you were saying about Barbie, I felt that in poor things, you know, to me it's like a darker, more mature version of Barbie. In fact, I think those two would make a great double

feature at some point. You know, Barbie and then poor things. I just found it so original and like fresh and a rollercoaster of emotions.

You know, it's awkward. You're laughing, you're nervous, it's emotional at the [00:13:00] end. I just think it has, you know, all the ingredients for a fun movie going experience.

mm I had a different experience to poor things. I thought it was shit, and I thought it was white people trying too hard to be arty. I was a little, I was a little like taken aback by poor things where I was just like, I don't get what people see in this movie. Like I, I enjoyed it, but I also was like. y'all are just one master's degree away from being insufferable. Like,

Stop.

stop. Just stop. Just stop. That said, I, I do, I agree. Oppenheimer is the film that's going to win Best picture. I am definitely in the camp of, like, Barbie is the film of the year. Barbie is the film that showed the possibility of what great writing can be

in terms of mainstream and art in a way.

And I thought it, it did this balance of sort of having people with master's degrees, however, understanding that entertainment is key. And I recently, so [00:14:00] like I do a podcast for Newsweek called The Parting Shot and I interview celebrities and stuff. And I was talking with Jody Foster about like, true detective, and she was saying something that I thought it really hit me where she was just like. Nobody fucking wants to sit down and have, you know, yeah. There are those great films where you can sit there and think about it and have these art things, but she's also just like, I wanna make things that people can go watch and enjoy and feel like they experience something and it's entertaining and there's something to be said for entertainment and, and I also never ended up being, and she was saying the same thing, that sometimes like you don't need to think so much.

Sometimes you just need to sit down and have a good piece of entertainment because the world's already making us think way too fucking much. And bar, and it's a hard thing to do because we often, artists want to be artists and make great things and make people think and all these things. And I feel like poor things was trying that too hard.

Whereas Barbie was just like, we're gonna make you think, but you're also gonna enjoy this experience. And I feel like Barbie was just that film that personified so much of that this year. The other film that

I would mention [00:15:00] that I. Absolutely loved that. I don't feel like God enough love was past lives.

I thought it was just this beautiful little, like, I love my favorite film of all time is terms of Endearment. And I love films that are just about people talking and having relationships and there's no big grand thing that they have to get over some weird gimmick or anything. Like, it's literally just people in conflicts and past lives is hearkens back to those films of like the eighties, the James L.

Brooks films or like the, you know, those great films where it's just people communicating and having

it, Kramer versus Kramer. Just people having life happen to them. And, and I thought that film really personified that in a wonderful way.

Yeah, I really liked it. It's one of those, I wish I had seen it in a big screen.

when I first started watching past lives, My mind was wandering. I didn't enjoy it as much in the first act as I grew to enjoy it by the very end, because it was two beautiful people talking to each other.

Not on Zoom, but on Skype. So one, it dated itself before it got to present day, but not gonna lie, when they connected in the [00:16:00] second act in person, damn, I felt,

I felt things, I felt electricity, I

felt chemistry. And I also just felt this question in my head like, oh, are they gonna fuck? Like that

I know. I wanted them to fuck so hard 'cause they're both so fucking hot.

they're so fucking hot.

But also it wasn't just, do I want them to fuck? It was complicated by the performance of Greta Lee's beautiful partner who did I think. A stupendous job of navigating a really complicated situation. And as a gay man, I'm in a relationship with a beautiful person right now. And when you're, when you are gay, the question of openness and can you

Mm-Hmm.

be with former lovers, what are the parameters of being with former lovers, if this were a gay movie, the solution to pass lives would be like, oh yeah, let's [00:17:00] all just fuck.

Like that would be the solution to that movie. But watching it through a straight lens was like, okay, but also to play devil's advocate for myself, I think that what made the movie so titillating is that sense of longing that was never quenched. I think that that tension between them was so great that at the end of the movie, when they were.

Waiting for the car to pick him up. I was of two minds. I said, absolutely do not kiss him because you're gonna hurt your partner who has been so patient and has been

with you through this, and is just really humbled himself. But on the other end, I'm like, he doesn't live in the country. If you kissed him

like

too, I feel like if they had kissed the partner would've even understood.

You know what I mean?

I think so too.

Oh yeah. Such a good move. Such a, and it, that's what's great about movies like that, is that like.

You don't

need all of the things to make you think, you know what I mean? You don't need, and it's entertaining and it's moving, and it's all of those things.

And I think [00:18:00] there's just so little space for films like that these days because of the nature of the industry and what Jodie Foster called like the, it's Disneyland, it's the Disneyland ification of sort of Hollywood right now. And, and how everything is a, you know, big film and all those things. And it, it's, it's true in a lot of ways. And so to have a film like that breakthrough I thought was

really great.

Yeah. Where you're just like, I, I found that a movie, you know, it kept me thinking for days. So even, you know, not just the two characters, but also situations in my mm-Hmm would've happened if, you know, and I think, there's a movie that I wish had gotten more love, that gave me a very similar reaction where after the movie it kept me thinking like the next day and then the following day.

And that's all with strangers.

Mm.

Oh, snubbed. That movie got snubbed.

yeah, it did. I mean, I, part of me felt like that film, it did get snubbed, but I also don't think it ever would've made it into the best picture category. But I feel like it should have [00:19:00] been in the screenplay. It should have been in screenplay, for sure.

screenplay, maybe acting. I thought all, all four actors were phenomenal. So considering you're like playing an adult, talking to your parents and it never felt cheesy or like,

it never took me out of it. It,

I think the way they executed that really worked. But anyway, back to nominated

Yeah. I, to answer my own question and circle back, I think that Oppenheimer's gonna win. Not gonna lie. This is a funny story for both of you. Months ago when I went to see Oppenheimer, I was on a date with a guy. And not gonna

lie, my mind wanted to be anywhere. But in that damn theater, I was bored.

I took four bathroom breaks during Oppenheimer and didn't piss once.

I

just wanted to look at my phone, like that's how

much I wanted to not be in the theater for Oppenheimer. And I respect it as an accomplishment. I respect it because Christopher [00:20:00] Nolan is a master of his craft. That movie is an embarrassment, an embarrassment of riches when it comes to talented actors at the top of their form, firing on all cylinders.

But when I tell you that, that movie frustrated me because the editing, while the sound design was impeccable, the scenes were so short. That just as I was getting into a feeling or the rhythm of something, it got ripped away and we were on to the next thing. It felt like a three hour sizzle reel to me.

That movie

zipped around so damn much, and I was not emotionally invested in it until after the bombing.

And it slowed down then too. It, and the frenetic energy of it slowed down towards the end. And it lets you sort of like after the bomb, which I think was probably part of Christopher Nolan's master plan. But I agree. I had the most annoying experience watching that fucking movie. I mean, I thought it was a great film.

I, as soon as you watch it, you're like, oh, this is a technical masterpiece. It's gonna win. Best

picture. It'll be a [00:21:00] historic film. Bloom. Okay, I get it. I get it. But because it was like the, I saw it during the whole Barbie Heimer situation. So like, we were sitting next to these two girls who literally were only a, only seeing this movie because of Barbie Heimer.

And so they had their

phones out, they're Snapchatting the whole

Oh no.

I would've said

At least I left the theater.

not

I'm, I'm the guy that's like, put your

no, have learned, I have learned that I have a personality that if I engage, they engage back tenfold. So I don't engage,

yeah. .

I had, I had a completely different experience. I was hooked. You know, for me it went by super quick. It was like a roller coaster. I remember the film ended and I was like, you know, like exhausted, but in a good way. It's like, oh, that was like fun.

Like, and you know, we watched it at 9:00 AM

which, you

know, I timed it 'cause I was like, I eat a lot. So I'm like, I can't be hungry. I wanna enjoy it, you know? We'll grab lunch after the movie. It was early, but it was still pretty packed, [00:22:00] which was fun. Yeah, I had a great time. I had a great

Greta Gerwig said something. She stole it from someone else, she said, but like that the best times to see a movie is at like early in the morning and then also

it like late in the afternoon so that you can do lunch and dinner afterwards and then discuss it.

I love an early, an early I just can't get anywhere at 9:00 AM I barely wanted to see y'all at noon.

that's amazing. When I went to see poor things I went to see it with my partner at 9:00 PM. We went to see it super late

and I thought, Okay.

I don't know what this movie is, but, so I took an edible. I took an edible, and

the edible didn't kick in until halfway through the movie when I tell you that, I fell asleep a few times and I kept waking up to just passionate, pounding in the middle of the movie.

And I was so confused, but also just like, oh wow, okay, what's happening right now? And to go off of your thoughts of poor things, H Allen, I, maybe I need to [00:23:00] rewatch it with a sober brain, because when I saw it, I, in a weird way, it made me uncomfortable at first because I thought that Emma Stone was impersonating immensely disabled person.

And I thought, oh. Okay. That's what we're doing here. Interesting.

Then when the sexuality started happening with her character, I got even more uncomfortable. 'cause I thought, am I supposed to be rooting for this? Is she being taken advantage of?

I did a weird 180 because again, high, and I have an enormous crush on Mark Ruffalo.

So when they started getting together, I was like, okay, this is just really hot now and I'm into this part of it. But also when it comes to that movie, what takes it down a level for me is that I can appreciate the technical aspect of what she did for the former part of the performance. But then once her character started to become a [00:24:00] little bit more sentient, I saw a lot of Emma Stone isms creep to the surface.

In a way that you would only recognize if you love an actor. I've watched her in so many things that there were so many acting ticks that I recognized when the characters start to become a little bit more cohesive. That took me out of it in a way that I'm not sure that somebody else would've been taken out of it.

So while I appreciated the movie and what it was aiming for, it didn't quite hit the mark for me, but I appreciate how fucking weird it was.

Yeah. I like how weird it was. it was like being on out to dinner with someone who just like went to Harvard and won't stop telling you they went to Harvard.

Oh my know? That's what, that's what it felt like to me a little bit. But maybe that's just, maybe that's just my humble blue collar, Midwestern roots being bitter.

I don't know. All good.

I, I will say can we talk about Mark ruffle of 13 going

Oh my God, yes. Always,

day now. Yeah. but it up. What, when did the boner start? 'cause [00:25:00] it it from start to finish for me. I don't know what you're talking about. Like it, yeah, definitely. No, mark R Mark Ruffalo. I mean, mark Ruffalo career. Like what was that first film he did with Laura? Laura Lenny? You Can't Something, you can't, I forget the name of the film now, but it was the first one he got nominated for an Oscar for I think, where she did at least.

And it was so good. And then like ever since then, mark Rolo has

the kids were all right. are all, oh my God, the

That's when it started for me.

That's, that's when just me noticing

Mark Ruffo, just as a specimen, as a specimen, not a man started. He's just,

there is something about him that is so effortlessly charming and interesting to watch. I just,

I can't get enough of him. He's so great.

then you saw him as The Hulk and you were like, that's it.

That's what gets it. That's what gets it.

Yeah.

And that's what I, you know, as a fan of Mark Ruffalo, and I think this character was the most [00:26:00] different, a lot of the characters he's played, it's like he's playing this terrible, villain, figure that I thought it was an interesting choice for, for Mark Ruffle.

And I thought he did a great job. Like it was fun watching him do something a little different. Yeah.

Oh, for sure. For sure. And I think that

these performances and these movies definitely were supported by some directors, some of which who got nominated, some who didn't get nominated. Who do you think is gonna win Best Director.

I mean, I don't think there's a even a question there. It's

Christopher Nolan Oppenheimer. I

mean, it's just, that's a film that's made for a director to win Best Director. It's like when Ang Lee won for life A Pi, there are films that are made that you're just sort of like, this is a director's film. You can't not, they can't not win. Best Director and Oppenheimer's one of those films.

Yeah. I think without a doubt, it'll be. Nolan it's an interesting year, you know, for the Oscars. I think so many of the categories are very

predictable, but then there's a few that are what's gonna

happen, you know? I think those are

Yeah, well, it's.

[00:27:00] but yeah, I think Director

It's interesting you bring that up because like, you know, last year was also a very predictable year. I mean, everybody, everything everywhere was, it had won everything and it, it,

there was little doubt at that point when it led into the Oscars that they were gonna win most of 'em.

I mean, at least Michelle Yo and Best picture were, it was definitely gonna win those awards.

Kiki Kwan and Jamie Lee Curtis maybe was a bit of a surprise. But what was different though, I think, I think this year is kind of boring in comparison to last year because with everything everywhere, it was such a film to champion, you know what I

Hmm.

was like, it was a film that shouldn't win best picture and it had a cast that you wouldn't normally think about winning

Oscars. And it had, their cast had stories of interesting careers where the, their path would usually wouldn't lead them to the Academy Awards. And so there was all these sort of underdog tones of last, even though it was an expected year,

they were

still the underdog. They had that vibe.

You know, the box off is success, you know, for a movie of that scope, you know,

totally. and this year, I think the kicker and the problem is Oppenheimer is expected [00:28:00] and you expect that to make a lot of money and you expect it to be nominated for all these awards. And, and it's not, it never ever had an underdog status ever. Like there never was a even a consideration that it wouldn't get these nominations.

And so

it's less exciting because of that, because there's no one to really be like, wow, you really, you really got there, Chris? Like if Christopher Nolan had went from directing Dorito's commercials to this, maybe there

would be an underdog story, but like, but he's not doing that. You know what I mean?

And so I can't, it's hard for me to be like, you got it dude. Good for you. I'm so proud. 'cause in the back of my head I'm like, you probably bought an Oscar years ago.

When it comes to Christopher Nolan and I do agree that he'll win. I have very complex thoughts about him. I think that he is one of the greatest directors working today. There's no question about that. He is on top of his shit and the praise that he gets is deserved because he works his ass off On the other hand.

sometimes I can't help but wonder if Christopher Nolan is a great director because of what he can [00:29:00] do technically more than what he can do with actors. I don't know if I would call Christopher Nolan an actor's director. Because the performances in his movie, or maybe it's just the writing.

'cause I know that he also has a hand in writing. A lot of the stuff that he directs, a lot of his stuff leaves me feeling emotionally cold. it leaves me very, like, I'm impressed by the spectacle. I look at it and I'm like, wow. But it doesn't sit with me. And I wonder if maybe that's because he tends to tell stories that are more about things happening than about people connecting, like with Christopher Noll and it's like, action, action, action, action.

Like Christopher Nolan would never do something like past lives. He would never do something like the holdovers. He would never do something like American fiction. I don't like the way that Christopher Nolan does person to person connection, and that's, that tends to be what sells a movie for me. So he's [00:30:00] not my guy, but I completely understand why he's other people's guys.

I agree with that. And I think he sort of is in the class of directors. I mean, 'cause there is, there's a reason why Steven Spielberg rarely gives the writing credit on his films. And it's because he is a great technical director that knows relationships and understands actors in a way that, other directors don't, but he's not a writer and he knows that about himself.

Whereas then you look at someone like James Cameron who fucking, you know, makes a, a, a film that wins what, 10 Oscars or whatever the Titanic one. And it didn't even, it wasn't even nominated for screenplay and it won best picture, which is

mm-Hmm.

And that so rarely happens. And it's because he's a technical director that wants to be involved in the writing, but really

shouldn't.

And I think Christopher Nolan probably is in that class of directors that they really shouldn't be involved in the writing unless he allows himself to get personal, like Spielberg did with Fable Men's

Which I loved. I love I loved that film.

I loved that film. And I, I think, I think it's a testament to him as a [00:31:00] director that he. He's achieved every technical possibility that a director like him can achieve. And so it's like now all you have to do is get personal and go, go really personal, like in a past lives way. And he did that with Fable Men. So, yeah, I mean, I don't think Christopher Nolan is at that place in his career, but there's a reason why Steven Spielberg could only do that film at this stage in his life.

You know what I mean? And you could argue he did it with the Color Purple, but even then he didn't, he had no writing credit on the

right.

and Schindler's List. He didn't have a writing credit on Schindler's List. And there's a reason why he didn't have writing credits on those films 'cause he had to be separated from it.

So there's a reason now at this point in his career, he's allowed himself to have a writing credit on a film and, and

it's, it's interesting.

Yeah. And Charlie, I've definitely heard that from other people before that Nolan's definitely more a technical director and, you know, perhaps directing actors isn't necessarily as forte. I personally don't really have an opinion, but

I've heard it, you know, from so many friends, especially when it comes to, you know, female actors.[00:32:00]

Mm

I have a lot of friends, you know, who always complain that the female characters are just not developed properly or they're not given The attention or moment that they deserve or that they could

That was my biggest criticism of with Oppenheimer was Emily Blunt's part in Oppenheimer and how

even Florence, Florence Pews character as well. It's so I guess, what's the word?

underutilized.

underutilized. And Florence Pugh is one of those actresses. I can't wait to follow her career for the rest of my life because I think just charisma.

Charisma. But I think in this movie maybe the story didn't quite know what to do with her. It, it just feels, and I'm gonna go there. really straight, white, male, a lot of the stuff that he does. Just very like,

eh, you know, like I.

Or I think of, I think if we were just talking about Catwoman, I think of Anne Hathaway's, Catwoman, looking back it's like, [00:33:00] could that have been finessed a little more? And again, back to my, just my personal opinion about no one directing women.

Yeah. Yeah, it's very interesting and I think speaking of directors directing women, I think that, well, one, I want both your thoughts on this. Everybody was in such an uproar about Greta Gerwig not getting nominated for Best director for Barbie and for her being passed over. I have my thoughts on that and I wanna know what your thoughts are too, but I think celine's song. So her not getting nominated for best director. I think that that was even deeper of a snub than Greta Gerwig, you know, because of what she did with the actors. Like, what do you think?

See, I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that necessarily. I,

I think, I mean, I think she did an amazing job as directing the film. But I think the heart of

And first time. First time Yeah.

amazing, amazing job directing that film. But I do think that the relationship [00:34:00] there is more writer to actor than director to actor in

oh,

okay. Good point. Good point. I.

in terms of how personal this story was for Celine and, and, and, and she is, I mean, she came, I believe she came from theater and so there is this sort of relationship between the writer and the actor that I think spoke more to the reason why that that performance was given or that how it translated.

So I like that she's nominated for, for screenplay and I think that's a worthy place for her to be. Whereas with Barbie, that is a director's movie, it's very much comparable to Oppenheimer in that. There's no way any of that be it, the performance, be it the technical aspects of it, be it the, the old Hollywood aspects of it would have happened if not for the director. And it, it's, it's even more than just a writer actor relationship. It is a director actor relationship and a director crew relationship that made that film possible. And so I do think it is sort of a massive snub in the sense that [00:35:00] that film. Is a director's, it's, it's very comparable to Oppenheimer in a way, just on a different scale.

And because it's not as flashy or it doesn't have as many men in it, and it's not as, you know, it's not as historically epic and, and artistic in the way that we expect art to be because we have a lot of just regular, the, the, the heteronormative mindset of sort of

what art should be and what art looks like is very strange.

Whereas like queer people are like, oh, well, drag queens are artists. Let's go to them. And I think, I think that Greta Gerwig recognizes that, and because of that, it's hard for I think the directing voting population of the academy to be able to see, oh, well this is actually a different form of art. It just looks different than what we're used to.

But this, but her job was nowhere, anywhere near, technically different than what Christopher Nolan had to contend with. I mean, she had to contend with old Hollywood aspects of filming

that are outdated and, and, and, and we don't use anymore. And. Just certain realities that, that, that aren't a problem for modern day [00:36:00] directors and that she had to contend with.

And so I think it's a snub in the sense that like, they don't see it the way I think the rest of the population sees it, that it is a viable option for art, you know?

Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. It's accessible, it's entertaining, you know, touching on points that we've covered, you know, in this podcast, it had, you know, everything. And I think the, you know, the snub or whatever you want to call it, her not being nominated speaks you know, to where we're still at, you know, in the industry.

And in terms of the director's branch and the voting members or body I think it was very upsetting, not just as, as a fan of the movie and again, considering everything that it accomplished. It, it's kind of strange that she's not in there.

I also, I don't know if we'll have another space to talk about it. So before we move on, I also want to throw Todd Haynes's name out there for May, December, that movie, I [00:37:00] never wanna watch it again, but at the same time I loved it. I thought that that movie was very interesting, what they did with the characters, with the story, what they did in terms of just what I thought of the scandal that happened in the marriage that was at the center and the core of the story, When I think back on this year of movies, one of the scenes that I keep coming back to, actually two scenes are from May, December. One is the theater classroom scene where Natalie Portman's character is there and she gets thrown this really weird, inappropriate, childish question about, oh, so what's it like when you do a sex scene?

an adult with boundaries would've said, ah ha. You know, it's just work. And they would've moved on. But the fact that Todd directed her to actually take that and run with it, and for there to be this undergirding of a bit of [00:38:00] a predator, and how she answered the question like, oh, and then you, you feel this and you feel this, and you feel this, and you feel this.

And it was very. Weird. And I keep coming back to that scene in my mind because I wonder if that was the actress tapping into the character that she was gonna be playing in the movie and kind of walking on the

knife's edge of appropriate and inappropriate or if the character was completely oblivious.

And I think that that is a testament to the directing. Also a testament to the directing is the bedroom argument that the male and the female lead characters have about the dynamics of their relationship and how it really has impacted the dad character of, you know, I don't think that I was old enough to be making those decisions and how he was gaslit completely gaslit in that scene.

I felt for him and I really. Wanted to protect him, and I really wanted him to just run away from that situation and this woman who [00:39:00] has severe cognitive dissonance, and probably other personality disorders going on. But What did you both think about that film and the way that it was directed?

I'm so curious.

I had a lot of fun. I watched it with a girlfriend in theaters. We wanted to see it in a big screen. It wasn't two packed, but it was like a fun, you know, group of people watching it Uh, I had fun 'cause I didn't know what was gonna happen. It's one of those things where you're watching and where are we gonna go? What's gonna, you're just sort of going with it and you feel weird, but having fun at the same time. And I, yeah, like you said, Charlie, I may not ever watch it again, but I had a great time. I, I liked it. I thought it was interesting and seeing, you know, sometimes you're watching Natalie Portman's performance and then you start, you know, questioning like, is this. I think you said it earlier, is she tapping into the character

she's gonna be playing or is she just being herself and she's just perhaps even crazier than the Julianne Moore character? It's, [00:40:00] it's, it's an interesting movie. I, I, I had fun watching

Yeah, I, I, I think Todd Haynes is one of the best directors living right now, and I think he's a genius and I, I love what he does, and I think it's interesting that this is one of the rare films where he wasn't the lead in writing. Writing it, which I think says a lot about this film and about the story and what drove him to go do it. I don't necessarily think it's a director's movie, and I don't necessarily think the best work out of it came from directing. I think the best work, and there should be a category for like, best collaborations because Todd Haynes and the collaboration between Julianne Moore and then adding Natalie Portman into that mix in addition to the writer of the film and also Charles Melton sort of delivering this, being the anchor of the film in a really silent way that is all just collaboration and people working through things on set and, and having, I mean, I interviewed Charles about, I. About it. And he was saying that there was, I think the shoot was only like 27 days or

Whoa.

And how it really [00:41:00] was just sort of, there was no rehearsal process. You just went in and you did it. And so it really was like quick filmmaking in, in a way that required the actors to be very much communicating with the director and having a back and forth and having a dialogue with the director and the writer.

And, I, I, I see what I see your point. But I also don't think out of all of the best director nominees, 'cause there are some great best director nominees this year, and out of all of them, I don't see how Todd Haynes would make it

in. I really don't. And I, I just don't think there's room for, for him when you, when you compare May, December, which I think is one of the best films of last year, and it got, it's, I think the biggest snub for May, December is Charles Melton.

I think that is, that's a testament to a young actor recognizing that. You know, subtlety over flash and understanding that he just needs to listen to the rhythm of what the story's telling him to do. And he did it in a really, really interesting way that I found really, really compelling.

He's the standout to me completely.

Moving on to Best actor. [00:42:00] I'm so curious to get both of your thoughts on this. So who do you think is gonna win and who do you think should win?

I think it's gonna be Kellian Murphy. I, I don't mind. I mean, again, I, I'm in the Oppenheimer bandwagon. I. I think he said a lot with his face. I mean, it's big camera, big IMAX camera on your face, and I, I'd be happy, you know, to see him take it.

I love Paul Gidi and the holdovers. That was just a movie that made me feel really good. I was just happy when it ended. Yeah, I think I would give it to either Killian or Paul.

What I think is interesting about this is, I mean, the holdovers to me is one of my favorite films of last year. And, and I, I like it better than Oppenheimer, I

Mm, same. Agreed.

yeah, it's just, and, and Paul Giamatti's performance, I think, I mean, Killian Murphy did an incredible performance in Oppenheimer but I don't think it's comparable to Paul Giamatti and the holdovers because there's a rhythm to what Paul Giamatti had to do.

[00:43:00] Balancing the humor and the drama, and the warmth and the anger, and all of these things that, you can't even get out of a script. That's an actor, that's an actor

taking it and running with it and doing something that, is in his head based on many years of being a great actor. And so for me. The, in terms of best actor, it is 1000% should be Paul Giamatti for the holdovers.

I think it's, I think it's just an incredibly nuanced performance more nuanced than Killian Murphy on any day, because you can't be nuanced in a Christopher Nolan

film. There is no nuance in a Christopher Nolan film. Everything is there technically for you to enjoy and run with. And so with Paul Giamatti's performance, you could go in a lot of different directions having discussions about who

this character is and where he could be, where he came from and where he's going. I just think it's the performance of the year. I think Killian Murphy's going to win at this point because Sag, he won the

Oh,

that us, that usually

dictates who's gonna win. Not always, but it does dictate. We will see how tight the race is, but I, I,

I think Kelly Murphy's gonna win, but I really desperately want Paul Gim to win

That's true. Yeah. I mean, a [00:44:00] performance that broke me, I mean it, for me, I think it was my favorite male performance, and I wish the movie had gotten more love, at least critically. But the Iron Claw, I loved

Zach Efron. I mean, the ending of that movie, even my, I watched it with my mom and my fiance, and then even my mom was like, you're crying.

Like you're still crying. I like it. I, and you know, I don't, I don't wanna spoil it for anyone that hasn't, you know, watched it. But that last line to me, it's so memorable and it destroyed me and I think about it and I get chills and

I liked that movie and I

see your point, but it also kind of gave me Bradley Cooper maestro Give me an Oscar vibes in a way

too. There was like, there wasn't, there wasn't, there was a hunger. That came from Zach Efron. that unsettled me in, in the performance. Although I did like the movie and I thought it was good. I also was just like, y'all need to calm down. Your Oscar will come. You know what I mean? Just stop, just do your [00:45:00] thing. Like Paul gi Imani ain't worried about winning Oscar. He's just making great

Angela Bassett just got hers. Y'all need to relax. Y'all need to Like, yeah, like, like just relax and do great work. You know what I mean?

Like, oh god, oy.

Yeah. When it comes to the

performances, I've always been a fan of Kelly Ann Murphy all the way back to my favorite Killian Murphy performance. And this is a deep cut. Y'all Red eye, Wes Craven.

That's a

good

Rachel

With Rachel mc Adam. And that is

such, that's one of my favorite kind of films. I love a film that takes place in one day that has a

pressure cooker premise, and I love films that just let the characters hang out.

Before shit goes down. That film did that really well. I think it's a very underrated West Craven film. I think it's an underrated Killian Murphy film, and I think that that film just shows what a Swiss army knife of a performer he [00:46:00] is. while I think that he really was one of the core pieces of holding Oppenheimer together, he was definitely the egg in that cake.

As far as he is the united factor of all those relationships. I think that he has so much depth as a character and has the ability to be deeply cerebral and creepy and sensitive and vulnerable and menacing and ferocious and just small and timid, but then also really threatening. I think that he can go so many places that.

I think that the only time that Oppenheimer really gave him a chance to flex one, the interrogation scenes, because that was mostly playing off of his reactions and I could see everything he was thinking on his face. Two, I really liked him giving the speech after the bombing and just hearing the, [00:47:00] the footsteps in the auditorium while he was just saying what he needed to say.

So I think there were moments. Of greatness in his performance in Oppenheimer. I just wish that they had more time to breathe, and I don't know if that's more his fault or the editing's fault. He probably gave more and it was on the cutting room floor, but I just, I wanted more from him in that movie.

I think that he'll win because Oppenheimer is a juggernaut. But to, yes. And what you said about Paul Imani and the holdovers, that film has such a special place in my heart, it feels that is a film that I will watch again and again for the rest of my life.

It is. They're not making movies like that anymore.

Like

I agree

they're, they're,

like they're,

with past

they're, it's so different.

It hits different. And the fact that Paul Giani played such a mungy character who thought pretty easily

and had complexity and depth to himself and [00:48:00] just. it kind of reminded me a little bit of Kramer versus Kramer, just because Kramer versus like vaguely, not identical to Kramer versus Kramer, but at

In terms of the character arc, definitely.

Also, I mean also because it is a Christmas movie, and I think the closest comparison is a

Christmas Carol and having Ebenezer Scrooge. I mean, he started off as this

very curmudgeon, angry person and in the end he's still a little bit of a curmudgeon, but a softened curmudgeon in his own kind of way. And, and there's a reason why Christmas Carol is one of the best things ever written is because it's a beautiful character

study. And that's what this film is as

well. A self-aware

about to say, like now we have another Christmas movie that we can, you know, next Christmas if you're in the mood for a Christmas movie. Oh, holdovers

I love a deep cut Christmas movie. Like, I mean, I love a holiday film in general, which is like, you know, sacrilegious for me as a Jew, but I do love a holiday movie, however, that said, I love like a deep cut holiday [00:49:00] ho, like, like Batman returns holiday movies that shouldn't be holiday movies, you know what I mean?

That are just sort of

themed around the holidays. I love

that. Carol.

Carol's a great one too. Carol's a

great holiday film.

my God. The absolute best. Oh my God, y'all look so fun. I fucking love talking about this with y'all. Oh my God. So best actress, let me hear your thoughts. Who's gonna win? Who do you think

should

my God. I mean, I, I really, I, I would love for Emma to win. I still think she's gonna win.

I think she's gonna win too.

it's interesting, it's like last year where it could have been Kate, it could have been Michelle. I mean, they were both fine, performances, you know, the, the best of last year. with Emma, with everything she was able to do and getting to see the character develop as she's growing, I thought it was interesting and fun and different and bold. So yeah, I, I, I'd love to see her win and I think she'll win.

[00:50:00] Hmm. This is hard. So, like, part of me loves the idea. I love a movie star. I love a movie star and I love a movie star winning two Oscars. 'cause it's such a moment that happens so rarely. You know what I mean? When, when Tom Hanks won for Forrest Gump that second time and it was just sort of like, yeah, bitch, get it two years in a row.

Or Jodi Foster winning for Sounds of the Lambs. It's like, yeah, win two Oscars before you're 30. That's a, that's like a

badass flex. You know what I mean? Like those are movie

Hillary, Hillary swank. Well, Hillary Swank, we can talk about her later.

She only deserved one of those. Thank you. But there is something to be said about someone like, you want a movie star like Emma Stone and she is a movie star.

To have two Oscars at home, you wanna root for her. She's amazing. She's incredible. She's everything. But I'm also a little bit like. Lily, calm down. And so I, I, I, I think she could win. I would enjoy watching it. She'd give the best speech, but I don't necessarily, I'm not rooting for her. Then the other option I think is Lee Gladstone, who I think actually will win.

I think, I think the movement's going in Lily's corner to, for her to actually [00:51:00] win this and, she gave a great performance in Killers of, killers of the Flower

Moon. It's a great book. It's a great performance. She's incredible in it. She's an incredible actress. I frankly think she's a little bit boring in person, but I think she's incredible.

That's not, that has nothing to do with the performance she deserves the Oscar, she did a great performance. She deserves the Oscar boom. Done. But I do find it to be an interesting scenario in which could we have a

situation where it's like 2018 again, where Olivia Coleman.

see where you're going.

Olivia Coleman, Glenn Close and Lady Gaga are for up for an Oscar.

And you know that Glenn Close and Lady Gaga are probably competing for votes. You know, there's a, there's a vote, get there. That's happening. But it isn't necessarily unanimous. It isn't necessarily like a, like a crowd roaring of like support behind either performance. And that's kind of the same for Emma Stone and Lily Gladstone. They're both great, but they're, they're not, they're both picking up different awards in different ways because no one's going crazy for either film, you know

what I mean? Whereas the third vote get in this category. Now people have contested me on this, but I think it's [00:52:00] true. Anatomy of a Fall got so much love at the Oscars, surprising love at the Oscars and, and got more nominations than people expected in bigger categories than people expected.

They expected foreign, they expected Screenplay probably. And they expected Senator Hoer for best actors most likely, you know what I mean? Those were kind of like the expected ones, but to get director and picture and all those, I mean, that's wild. And I can see a situation in which. Am Stone Lily Gladstone tie each other out.

They, they both are competing for best actress and Sandra Hoer just barely squeaks by and gets in and wins in a, in a, it's sort of like this is going back, but it's sort of like 1950 with Gloria Swanson for Sunset Boulevard, Betty Davis for all about Eve. These are two massive films. These are two massive actresses at the top of their game.

How could they not win? How are they nominated in the exact same year? Oh my God. Like, how does this happen? And then who wins Judy Holiday for Born Yesterday? And everyone's like,

what? And so I can see this being, that's a [00:53:00] scenario in which I could see

Sandra Hoer winning and I wouldn't mind it

because that was a badass performance.

that really was, and I think the 2018 example with Olivia Coleman taking it when I think the majority of people, even more than Lady Gaga, I think Glenn Close, it was almost like a lock. I mean, I remember her reaction when they announced Olivia Coleman, Oh yeah, oh. It's like, 'cause I, I was shocked.

I mean, I,

posted a video yeah, I mean,

it, it could be, could be a similar situation. Yeah.

I mean, unless adding Sandra to the mix costs, you know, the balance between Lily and Emma to maybe shift a little it's gonna be very interesting. I think that's the category that I, I'm personally most excited for, for next

Well, as homosexuals, that's usually, you know,

best act, best actress is the one. Yeah.

It really is. Best actress is that girl for sure.

And Can I

say something real quick? I was actually, I was super [00:54:00] excited to see Annette Benning Oh my God. Annette Benning. Can I, can I share something about

Annette Benning real quick? like I said, I interviewed her where I told her that homosexuals have been so angry and, and mad about her.

Maybe I'll just play it for you. Homosexuals have been so angry and mad about her not winning an Academy Award for years now that I told her this and she responded, I wonder if you can hear this. Hold on. Lemme people who are very angry that you and Glen Close don't have Oscars and it for years, this has bothered me.

And now I know it probably doesn't bother you as much as it bothers me, but there is a whole crew of primarily gay men out there who are. Just vehement that you deserve an Oscar at some point in your career. Are you aware of how angry we are that you didn't have an Oscar? That's what I wanna know. No, I didn't know you were angry.

Oh my God. Furious. Please furious. So please. You're furious. Thank God. I want you to just stay mad. [00:55:00] Annette

Benning Annette be, we

are

are mad.

I'm so happy

I'm, I am very, I'm honored to stay mad on her behalf.

I wanted her. She deserved. Kids are all right. That was the Oscar. That was her

I was, I was just about to say, yeah.

great character

Natalie

Moore got snubbed. I thought Julian Moore got snubbed. That ear.

Agree. Agreed. Yeah, I,

in terms of just those performances, I already said what I thought about Emma Stone's performance in that film. As far as Lily Gladstone's performance, I think Emma had the more showy

performance of the two. She costumes, prosthetics, like it was a more clear arc. I think Lily Gladstone was a lot more understated in what she did and was really just I'm gonna give her props, a great listener and really worked well off of what she was giving, particularly in those early courting scenes with Leonardo DiCaprio and just playing off of what that dynamic was.

I didn't [00:56:00] really care for that movie. I. Killers of Flower Moon. To be honest, it wasn't my cup of tea. But then again, Martin Scorsese doesn't really speak to me as a director because he just, he has certain parts of the world that he is interested in amplifying that have no interest to me.

It's always very violent.

It's always very heteronormative. It's always giving the same thing. But again, he's another case of I can get why he's somebody else's guy. He's not my guy. But at the same time, I think my opinion of Lily Gladstone's performance suffers because she's attached to that film, which I feel overall meh about.

I am a Martin Scorsese Stan, I will admit that. And, I think he's a brilliant filmmaker, and, and he has, he took the, the rhythm of the 1970s gorilla filmmaking and turned it into a mainstream art form in a way that no other director, I think [00:57:00] did from the 1970s. And, you know, I think you see a film like, I mean, I'm even gonna go deep cuts here, like casino casino's, one of the

Casino is great.

is an incredible film.

The Aviator was the time that, that Mars Esei was at his best. And he was, it was just a beautiful, brilliant film. I agree though. Killers of the Flower Moon is not, ain't it Ain't my jam, it ain't my, it

ain't my Scorsese jam.

Yeah, I, you know, and I think for me, the biggest problem I have is some people might disagree. I think that's a supporting

I agree too.

Gladstone's

I agree.

So I, you know, I, again, I have my, I've already talked about my favorite, you know, in the leading actress categories, so that's why it's hard for me to root for Lily, because for me, that's a supporting role. That I think the intention was to originally, you know, campaign as supporting.

It's the same thing with

Michelle Williams two years ago or last

year with the Fable Mens.

in that, like, that technically kind of was a [00:58:00] supporting role, but she, her team made the decision, or the film, who knows, made the decision to lobby for. Actress, and I think it hurt her. I think she would've probably maybe won supporting. And, and with this year, with Lily, I mean, I don't know if she would've won. Even in supporting, I think supporting was, is so tight this year that like, I,

I think Lily would've lost in supporting this year.

yeah, I, I think I'm in the same boat as you guys. I feel like Killers, it's a great film. It just didn't really move me. It

Right.

I didn't really feel much. I feel like we were waiting for so long and for me, there was no payoff. I just was sort of waiting for

I can buy my own flowers, Scorsese.

I feel that, what do we think of? Oh yeah, I definitely have thoughts on this next category. Best actor in a supporting role. I

I, I like Robert Downey Jr. I think he's a fantastic actor. and I don't mind, I mean, I rarely like the crowning Oscars, 'cause this is definitely an Oscar for his career and not necessarily for this film, because let's be real, let's be

real. He [00:59:00] wasn't really acting that much. He was, but like, not like in the way that he did in Chaplain, let's say, when he was nominated first for the first time. So, I mean, I don't mind it, and I'm not, I'm not mad about it. I just, I'm not excited by his nomination. And to me, the best supporting performance in a male of the year was Charles Melton

Thank you.

Thank you.

and so, yeah. So I

just don't, I'm not, I'm just not excited, but I'm also not mad that he's winning, you know?

Speaking of younger actors in Revelations, Dominic Cesa and the holdovers was, you know, another performance that I would've liked to see

nominated and supporting actor.

Yeah. He did, he did win the independent Spirit Award. So we'll

Who cares about that though? Let's be real.

Oh

No one. No one's looking at that one being like, you're gonna be big. Like

Yeah.

SAG award? You want the Golden Globe?

You want that? That

good? Good.

bafta,

yes. I,

that salary

booster award?

I

[01:00:00] wanna give Sterling K. Brown his flowers,

Mm-Hmm

and I'm gonna admit that I, it's so funny. Of all the friends in my circle right now, I feel like I'm the biggest. This is us, Stan,

Oh,

for that show it. Even in the poker face writer's room, I worked with another upper level writer who.

Wrote on This Is Us. And I was always telling him, Joe, you wrote on This Is Us, what was it like? What was, what were the plot details? And I'm gonna, and this is gonna circle back to selling K Brown and what he did so well in American fiction. What I liked so much about this Is US is that it was a transgenerational family story told across multiple time periods with different sets of actors playing the same character.

And it's a really impressive feat of writing that we could jump to any of those time periods or [01:01:00] even see a glimpse or a flash of something from that time period. And we immediately got it. I think that that show doesn't get, its due for just how well and how cohesive, how cohesive that show was when it very easily could have been a mess.

It gets a lot of flack for just, oh, the melodrama, but whatever. We like melodramatic shit if it's done well and I am unapologetically a fan of this is Us and one of the main reasons is Sterling K Brown and the way that he is just able to be in a scene, give his all, and just fucking, not only aside from just being beautiful to look at, really just give a solid performance in whatever he does.

Yeah, he's a man.

He's like, like it's serving what's for Dinner man? And it's Sterling K Brown. I do, I like, he's like, I'm already full, but I need more. I could take more, man. [01:02:00] You know what I mean?

Yeah, you'll never say no Yeah.

He's like, potato chips, just keep on going, baby.

Do. I think he's gonna win. No, I wanted to say that I'm glad that he's nominated, though. I, if anyone were going to win in this category, I would really, but he's not nominated. I think that Charles Melton belongs in here, you know? But if I

were gonna have somebody who wasn't Robert Downey Jr.

I would say it would be between Ryan Gosling and,

I know. The others are boring. Sorry.

and Mark Ruffo. It'd be between him and Mark Ruffo.

I loved Mark and poor things. I just don't, it's not a winning an Oscar performance. And to me, I mean, I think you're right. Ryan Gosling is like the other one. I mean, he's the most him. Sterling K Brown are the two exciting nominees for me. The rest of the nomination, the nominees, and best supporting actor, I'm a little like it's like I got a bad order at Taco Bell.

I'm just sort of like, I'll eat it still, but I'm not gonna love it, you know?

Oh man, I love that. Yeah, and it's so [01:03:00] funny when Ryan Gosling got nominated, but Margaret Robbie didn't get nominated, and I want your thoughts on that. I was initially annoyed that Ryan Gosling was in that slot because it seemed to be the antithesis of what the Barbie movie stood for.

For Ken to be nominated and for Barbie to not be nominated. But now with a little bit of that kind of passing with time, I think that Ryan Gosling is just. And this is going past just him as an actor. He's so damn entertaining. I could watch him read the phone book. He's so fucking funny. Like that performance, I don't have anything really eloquent to say about it other than it was just so enjoyable to watch.

I think Ryan Gosling's great. I'm a big Ryan Gosling fan, just as a entertainer. I think he's entertaining. The Margot Robbie snub, I do think she was snubbed. I hate to, I, because you know, I love my girl Lynette. I do, I do. I love my girl Lynette and I will always be there for Annette in everything that she does, however. I think Margot [01:04:00] deserved that spot. and I don't think you can do the whole, well, it should be Margot over Ryan because it's just the way the voting works. It's just, you can't, you

There are different can't even consider that as an argument. There are different categories. You can't consider it as an argument. I do think that Margot was snubbed and the direction of the conversation went when she was initially nominated or wasn't nominated I think went in a direction that was very much 2024 internet speak that took away from, you know, the, I mean, name,

another film that a woman produced, starred, and defined the role in a way that, and if you think about two, if we're comparing performances like. You know, she had to create something from nothing that everybody knows and has a

relationship with. That's an impossible task that

she was able to do. And to me that is the height of what a great actor is. And so when you can take something and really make it your own, but also new and different, yet familiar is just sort of wild. It's [01:05:00] sort of, it sort of, it reminds me of one of the best performances in a film ever. Robert De Niro in The Godfather, part two, where you have this character that became so huge and synonymous and was a ma. I mean, Marlon Brando define that character in, in The Godfather and the First Godfather. How could someone in a sequel play this character and do him any justice when Marlon Brando wanna get denied his fucking Oscar for that performance?

I mean, like who, how can you do that? And Robert De Niro did it because he's a great actor, and Margot Robbie did that in a way too with Barbie. And that like we all know Barbie, like we all have a

relationship with Barbie in one way or another, and she. Made Barbie human and different in a way that I don't think an actor in, in, in another

actor's hands would've worked out the same way.

It was an interesting balance of the fantasy elements, but also making her feel real. Right. she did a great job with that. And there's this scene that comes to mind that every time I talk about it, I like get goosebumps when she's in the bus [01:06:00] station. You

know, waiting, I can't remember what she's waiting for, but you know, she encounters an older woman sitting next to her and the look in her face, you know, it's like, it's the first time she sees an older woman and she's just fascinating by how beautiful she finds her to

Yes.

And I remember watching it in theater and I was like, tearing up a

me too. I '

tear it up at that

yeah, there's just something. So, yeah, like human and I, I feel like nowadays it's like, or maybe always, we've always valued, you know, like youth and. Whatever's new, whatever's hot at the moment. Right. And it was just a beautiful moment.

Like, it, like, like Barbie was just mesmerized by not just, I, I like to think that it wasn't just like her appearance, but just like, oh, this, all these like stories and these like scar lines and this woman sitting next to me that I've never seen before and I, I found it very moving and just margot's expression for me.

Really. I don't know. I [01:07:00] found it really touching.

Yeah, I mean, my God. And also the, the woman who is on the old woman is Anne Roth. I mean, she's an iconic costume designer in film history. I mean,

academy Award winner, I believe. I mean, just an incredibly eccentric, weird woman who defined sort of certain aspects of costume designing and, and sort of sourcing it in different ways.

I mean, really an iconic woman in film history for costumes. So definitely need to look into more of her work.

Absolutely. But before we move on,

definitely think that it's very easy to take what Margo did with Barbie for granted, because you look at gorgeous blonde actress playing a gorgeous blonde doll, and you think, oh, she's just playing herself, which, mm. That's kind of really underestimating the intelligence in depth that Margot as a person and producer could be bringing to a role like that, that is holding the film together.

And I,

she's incredible. I really have. So nothing but admiration and respect for as performer. Also, [01:08:00] speaking of other actresses. Best actress in a supporting role. I wanna hear y'all's thoughts. What do you think?

I gotta start here because I love my girl, Divine. I love her so much. She is everything. She will win the Oscar. She's won every award under the sun. I was so struggling this year though, because I love her Divine. Joined Randolph in the Holdovers. I love her so much, and her performance, and I think it was incredible.

But I also love Danielle Brooks so,

Hmm?

in the Color Purple, and no one has entered a film in a way that Daniel Brooks entered the color purple and made more of a memorable performance and entrance of a film. And I've, I've interviewed her a bunch of times. I love her so much. I, she's just

incredible. She's an She's a real person.

real. She really is. And, but she's also, she's a real person, but she's also larger than

Hmm.

in a way that made that performance even better. And also too, again, speaking of people, entities that we know, [01:09:00] we know that character, we know that character so well from, you know, the original color Purple Oprah.

To, to follow in those footsteps and to give that character new life in a different kind of way. And have some of the most memorable scenes in the film because of it. I mean it, Danielle Brooks is just, I wish they could give a tie this year and just give it to both of them 'cause they both deserve it.

Divine and Daniel.

Yeah, I think will take it. And I, I loved that character, that performance. And I will say the nomination that made me very happy that I don't think a lot of people were expecting was America Federa for Barbie. Some people might argue I was just happy to see her in the mix. Yeah. But I, I'm, I'm in the Dave Divine bandwagon.

To, yes. Ann, all the points that you just made. I'm gonna start with H Allen. I'm gonna end with what you said about America. 'cause America's My Girl and I have a story about her. I am so happy that Divine is up for this award. I think she deserves it. I think she's [01:10:00] gonna win it. What's great about that character is that she played it in such a way that it makes sense for all the other characters to gravitate toward her the way that they do.

I think that she is the beating pulse of that film and she definitely gives it a lot of humanity. I think that Paul Giovanni a lot of his characters, breakthrough moments of humanity happen in conversation with her. Over the break. So I think that she is one of those rare supporting roles that it's easy to say, oh, she could be playing the magical Negro, or she could be playing the character that is only there to support the white man's journey.

I think that she is not that, because like Daniel Brooks,

she's a mother figure. She's a mother figure. I think also like Daniel Brooks, she's larger than life. She has her own pain. She has her own things that she's struggling with. She is the center of gravity of the holdovers. She's the reason why that movie [01:11:00] works.

I think that without her, would we still be talking about it in the same way? Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't feel the same way about it, but that performance definitely got a hold of me, especially the way that she broke down in the kitchen at that party scene where she's like, Ugh. My baby's not here right now.

then she's also funny. She's also funny because five

minutes after breaking down in the kitchen and when they're walking to the car, she looks at Paul Giani, the fuck is wrong with you? You telling him his parents don't want him.

Lemme see you.

You know, I think that she is just so good. She has color, she has depth, like that character has so many Ude.

I feel like I know her. I know that woman, that woman helped raise me, you know? So yeah, I'm getting emotional right now, but that performance means so much to

me.

Yeah. And, and circling back to what you said about Daniel Brooks, I think that her flowers are long overdue for the work that she did [01:12:00] on the Orange, just New Black, for just that performance that she did for Tasty, who was not only hilarious, but just. Was able to communicate the humanity of somebody stuck in this systemic oppression, you know, and unable to get out of that cycle and for her to take, I think that she definitely used some of the same tools in her belt for Tasty that she did for this character in the color purple, but on a different level with a lot more paint to use.

I think that I've seen her do similar things, but at the same time, I think that her having a win of this magnitude is long overdue and if she were to win it, I would cheer just as loudly. And if you speaking about America Ferrera, I am glad that she's nominated. I love that Barbie speech.

Also, Greta Gerwig said that she was responsible for writing part of it. America put a lot of her [01:13:00] experiences into it, and I think that's why it had some of its oomph that we're feeling right now.

Love this. The crowning of divine. I think it's perfect. Needs to happen.

Absolutely. It needs to, it needs to. She's the supreme. Oh Mm-Hmm Moving on to Adapted screenplay. I know y'all have got thoughts. I've got thoughts. Let's hear it.

Oh, adapted. I mean, well, I'm pissed that Barbie's in it

because Barbie Barbie should be an original and that was gonna be, that should have been Barbie's Crowning Award. I mean, that's my real thoughts actually.

I, I'm pissed at, I'm pissed at it.

But in terms of adapted, who do I think is gonna take it? It's what's American fiction's

Oh yeah, it is. Yeah. The, The,

nominees in America, it's American Fiction Zone of interest, Barbie, Oppenheimer, and Poor Things.

Right. So a tough category. Yeah. I, I, I think American Fiction's gonna take the Oscar for adapted screenplay deservedly so. I mean, it's, it's an interesting category. It's good stuff in there and,

[01:14:00] And American Fiction's the most original. I mean, even though it's adapted, it's the most original different, especially in terms of subject matter. And the way, I mean, it's American fiction is sort of like it's one of those, I mean, what I love about screenplay Oscar wins is that it gives it, it's, it's not best film editing, which like usually has to go to the best picture winner and that's a good foreshadow or of who's gonna win best picture.

Whereas with screenplay, you can kind of give an Oscar to someone who wrote something really interesting and wrote

something out there that wouldn't be a normal movie, typically. And American fiction is you look at all the other nominees and they're all movies, like they're all movies that you could see being a screenplay for a movie.

Whereas American Fiction, it could have been a TV show, it could have

been a movie, it could have been, it could have been a great

novel, it could have been a lot of different things. And it's just

such a unique experience. Yeah.

it could have been everything. And it's such a unique experience that I think you, you have to award that kind of writing.

Agreed. I think American

fiction should get it,

What about original? What do we

original.

Okay. I want the holdovers to win. I do. And I [01:15:00] think, and there's, I mean, this is the thing with originals, I think that, like, I love those relationship films, like I said, with May, December and Past Lives, and they're all in this category, which is wild to think about.

But I think the one that is going to win, and again, this sort of speaks to a film getting a lot of Oscar love, but less potential in a lot of categories. I think Anatomy of Fall is definitely gonna win for Rest original.

I would love for the holdovers to take it, but I, I do think Anatomy's gonna take it. Which is great. I mean, it's in my top 10 movies this

great movie.

Great dialogue.

oh, for sure. I agree.

Also a film in like three different languages.

I

found it to be a bummer, which again, isn't really a critical thing to throw on something. I want holdovers to win strictly because it felt like a warm blanket and it's set during Christmas, which are two of my

weaknesses. But I agree that anatomy of a fall, if it were to win, is just, It's a great one

Well on all the films too, we're very worthy of being in this category. You know what I mean?

Also, if past [01:16:00] lives were to

just Yeah. I take it, I think I would love to see past lives win

that would be great. 'cause I thought that was,

I

it's gonna be interesting.

interesting. And h Allen, I really like your point that in the screenplay category, films that wouldn't normally get Oscars would have a chance to get the recognition that they deserve.

yeah, I mean I think, you know, I think back to like the year Nomad LA won and I think it should have just won for screenplay and should not have won all those other awards. And I think Ma Rainey should have won all those other awards. But I do think there are years there where like some great unique films win best screenplay that wouldn't win any other, any other award because it's just such an original experience for a film.

I'm thinking of Juno. Is that Juno? Is that what it's

called? Yeah, Juno. Right? I.

Yeah.

About the Pregna teen.

Yeah.

That one won Best screenplay. And it's like, that film's not gonna win in any other category, but it's such a unique experience that the heart and the root of the film is [01:17:00] the idea, is the, is the premise of the

film. And, and, and that comes from the writing. And American fiction personifies that and so does Anatomy of a Fallen Away. It's like, it's one of those things that you just can't, you can't necessarily see the vision for a film, but it starts with that premise. And, and that's where the great writing comes from.

So you award that writing and I think, you know, I don't, I don't wanna see Bradley Cooper up there win from Maestro. Like, that's not a screenplay award that I want, that I want to win. It's like, yeah, you're gonna do a movie about a dude Cool. Win an Oscar for screenplay for that. That's not

Prosthetic nose, it'll be, but yeah.

Where everyone knows that movie should have been about the wife. Thank you.

you. Yeah, precisely, precisely.

lead actress category. It's so competitive. I think Carrie Mulligan's so underrated.

That performance was, I feel like if Emma and Lily were not in the mix, I, I, it's hard if we got Sandra Healer, we got Annette, But Carrie Mulligan was

she was great. The movie should have

been about her, though. At [01:18:00] the end of the

film I was like, oh my God, a white dude cheats on his wife. Hmm. How original. Never

seen that before.

And it feels like it tries to get there a little bit. Like it turns and it becomes about her. But no, she's always just on the side.

to him with that

nose getting bigger and his actions getting worse, and it's just sort of like, come on, Bradley,

stop it. Just be naked at home.

know, honestly, it

Oh, recently talked about wanting to be naked at home.

oh my God.

Well, those are the categories we're gonna cover for this episode of Charlie and Steve watch stuff. Thank you so much for joining us. Before we sign off, question for both of you. Where can our listeners find you,

On the street corner?

working your other

No. Yeah, no, I, I, I am my h Allen Scott on everything. And you can follow, you can follow me at Newsweek's Parting Shot Celebrity Interviews and and also Golden Girls Podcast, LAN I, and you're making it worse as well. And [01:19:00] also, like in town doing comedy, you can see me anywhere I tore too, so there.

Yeah, you can find me. Yeah, Instagram, Twitter. It's at r Ramos 10 32. And yeah, make sure you watch ESS World Cup. Rise of a legend on Apple TV Plus.

All right. Thank you. Great listeners, talk to you soon, and more importantly, see you at the Oscars. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

Bye.

It's gonna be fun.