Charlie and Steve Watch Stuff

[00:00:00] Hi friends. Welcome to Charlie and Steve watch stuff where today we are watching challengers My name's Steve Selnick and joining me as always, he's taking such good care of his two little white boys.

It's my good friend, Charlie Peppers. Charlie, how are you doing

doing well and not you reading my dating history

incredible. Well, what started as a sort of off handed joke at the beginning of our last X Men 97 podcast with him, the Other side of my tennis match today. Take that as you will. We would like to welcome back to the podcast yet again, our, our returning regular at this point, Ian Carlos Crawford from Slayer Fest.

Ian, thanks for being here again. What a great excuse to come together again,

Thank you for having me. I love that a stupid joke I made in our last recording led to this

I've like been wanting to watch this, but like, you know, [00:01:00] especially when you're recording, it's like, well, I'll watch. I think I'm going to record for it. I didn't have like a recording set up and then this gave me a reason to watch it.

I love it. Well, we're happy to also have the

Yeah, when I was watching it you definitely came to mine a couple of times because we did do the salt burn pod I was like, oh my god. I want all of ian's thoughts on Not just, not just like the homoeroticism of it all, but just the very, I don't know, what's the term for that? The, the term, oh, when you, when somebody's getting cucked. Like, I think this movie has a lot of cuckolding. Is it is it pronunciated cuckolding?

Yeah, Yeah.

Challengers. Cuckolding boogaloo. Electric boogaloo.

Not, us, not us. Also exposing our browser history in a podcast. Anyway, we're here to talk about the movie challengers. We're taking a break from our cartoon [00:02:00] superhero content to bring, I don't even know what the fuck this is, but we're going to talk about it. And it was a sure a heck of an adventure challengers.

The film released on April 26, 2024. In some places you can still catch it in theaters. If maybe this is the thing that tips you in that direction to go and see it, who knows? It was written by Justin Kuritskis and directed by Luca Guandino. And the plot of the movie is Tashi, a former tennis prodigy turned coach, turned her husband into a champion.

But to overcome a losing streak, he needs to face his ex best friend. And Tashi's ex boyfriend. And we're just gonna We're gonna just kinda I just went for T off, which is not the right sports allegory, but that's

Could've fooled me!

gonna go with. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna go with the opening processions here, and we're gonna hand it off to to our our line our head judge, our head referee, Charlie, to take us through this one, so Charlie, take it away.

[00:03:00] Happily. In 2006, friends Patrick Zweig and Art Donaldson win the Boys Junior Doubles title at the U. S. Open. They watch a match played by Tashi Duncan, a rising tennis star with whom Patrick and Art become infatuated. So, boys. What did we think of Patrick and Art's fascination with Tashi. What did we, did it seem like they were just into her clout and the aura of celebrity around her and her promise? I, I have my thoughts about this, but I wanted to hear y'all's thoughts about it.

I've been thinking about the Tashi of it all a lot, because I don't know I wanna be her. In my heart, that's who I wanna be. Someone who does not give a shit about any of these stupid men, but, like, can have them fight over her, and, like, these hot men who wanna fuck her, and she's like, I don't really care.

Ooh, make out for me. Yeah, that's cute. Alright, I'm leaving. Like, that's what I wanna be, but I [00:04:00] know that's not who I am. But I kept wondering Because, right, it's like, they could, there's, there's a million hot people in tennis and it felt weird that they landed on her as like a child, or teens or whatever the hell they're supposed to be, and then as adults we're still doing that. And, so I don't know, I don't think she ever gave a shit about either of them. Like, I really don't think she did. I, I feel like she's hot, she's confident, she knows what she wants, and she's a little mean, but she's pretty upfront about it. So, like, I don't know, I, I felt like, I kept thinking about the Tashi of it all, and I'm, I have some other opinions, but Steve, what did you say?

I

like, if a girl talked to me like that, I would chase harder, basically, is the, especially at that age, for someone that hot and that good at what they're doing. But I think what's interesting is right before that, when they win the doubles tournament, you can tell that the relationship is best friend plus.

There's a little bit extra juice to their physical relationship. [00:05:00] So then them suddenly. Being interested in the same girl is an interesting wrinkle to that because they're, they just seem closer than that, but maybe they don't realize it. And maybe they're supposed to be liking, I mean, it's 2006. So it's not as like open 2024.

Everyone is very much so more welcome to be on Tik TOK and figure out who the fuck they are. Less of that in 2006 and maybe a little bit more, Hey, yeah, maybe I feel this way about my best friend a little bit, but this is who I'm supposed to be looking at and wanting. In a way. They're laying the seeds for what happens next, basically.

Yeah, it, it almost feels a little bit of that thing of when you have a, Subconscious yearning or attraction to somebody you kind of project on to the person who's the object of their desire. And I think in this dynamic because later our boy Patrick definitely becomes a chaotic [00:06:00] bisexual, that's what he's giving, because of that moment on Tinder that we saw.

I think that Art probably had a bit more of a, oh, who's that? And Patrick felt it before, but he leaned into it more once he saw how interested Art was. I think that there's some kind of psychosexual underpinnings that they likely aren't aware of.

I have been in friendships like this with straight men back in like 2006, 2008. And I always like, I read recently with X Men 97, right? You, you all finished that covering that too. You know, there's like the morph of it all at the end.

And a lot of people felt like, They didn't like that. They didn't want Morph to be in love with this guy. I like it because it's like, okay, well, there are no other gay people on this team, so that's going to happen. I often think sometimes people want to villainize that trope because yes, it sucks, but it does happen, and I feel like that's realistic. I feel like Art had no interest in Patrick. [00:07:00] Patrick had interest in art, and I think art is kind of like whatever I Patrick's like my best guy, but like That's why Art is able to get away from him and not give a shit. Art is able to like, leave with Tashi, they have a family, he doesn't talk to him anymore and he doesn't care. Patrick still does. So I feel like, Patrick is the one, I think Patrick likes Tashi because he wants to fuck Art. And that's like, the connector, like, he was like, Well, I can make out with Art if we fuck Tashi, so like, now I'm more obsessed with her. I think in another world, I'll do. Patrick would have stopped being obsessed with Tashi, but because of the art of it all, it was like he latched on to her as a way to get, like, fucking Tashi was like the best, the next best thing to fucking art. And, you know, it's almost like, Patrick is here, art is here, and Tashi is here, and she knows what's going on. I think she's fully aware, like, she's a lot smarter. So I think she knows. I think that's why when they make [00:08:00] out and she's like, like this, but then she's like, All right, I'm leaving. Because she kind of understands that like, only really one of them wants to have sex with her, the other one wants to have sex with Guy. And while I've never had like, fully that something, something like that happen, I did once hook up with A girl and a straight friend and she said to me he's only here because this is an easy way to not be gay and still suck your dick like she said that to me and that's what I kept thinking with this. She was like she said she was like that's an easy way for him to experiment and not feel gay and I was like hmm I didn't think about that but that's why I was there so like I don't know maybe I'm projecting too much.

Weird place to unpack

ha

No, no, no. And her saying that was probably part of her enjoyment. Of what she got out of the situation. Cause I think that there was a part and I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but if our listeners are here and they've already watched the movie, they [00:09:00] probably also have the scene seared into their brains the way that that kiss happened between art and Patrick, that was the kind of, and I went to see this movie with my boyfriend Cody, and we both said the same thing, that's the way you make out with somebody when you're about to like. Fuck. Like, that was a very like, oh, we're into this. But the second that Toshi left, I found it very curious that they were just like, ah, bummer, the girl left.

Yeah, and like, so people on Twitter were criticizing the kiss, saying it looked awkward, but I agree with you, Charlie. I think it's more of like a feral makeout, where it's like, we are so fucking horny, we're just kind of like, mushing our faces together. And like, I don't know, I feel like that's a real thing, right?

Like, yeah, your kissing isn't that good, because you just want to like, fuck. And that's what you're like, thinking about. And for me It's also awkward because it's the first time they've kissed, right? Like, we know that they have not been involved. So it makes sense [00:10:00] their first kiss would be awkward, but also might be, like, super fucking horny.

So it's like, I think if Tashi, if Tashi had stayed, they all would have ripped each other's clothes off and, like, gone at it. And I think Art would be okay with Patrick, like, sucking his dick or whatever, because it's, like, not gay because Tashi's there.

Steve, what do you think as the, as the straight in this love triangle?

That's so funny. This was the moment I was going to credit with one of the most effective misdirects via marketing I think I've ever seen in a long time because the trailer makes you think that Tashi kisses one and then she kisses the other and then they each kiss her neck and then they both go down out of screen.

So you think that they're both going down there, but in actuality, that's about the moment where they're about to Like in that, that moment where she's laying back and giving the like, evil eyes up at the camera, you think that's because these two guys are going down on her, but it's actually her watching them make out with each other, which I think is a fucking brilliant misdirect.

that went [00:11:00] out because I even remember like seeing reactions to the trailer being like Tom Holland watching the Challengers trailer, like punching air and stuff like that. But it's, it's, it was a really good misdirect. I think half of the theater that I was in didn't understand what was going to happen there.

And yeah, I think that, I mean, talk about laying the groundwork for, you know, Unspoken feelings between two people and Tashi seeing it and coercing them into it and then being able to kind of subvert the expectations that you were given by the trailer it was a, it was a brilliant scene.

Wait, Charlie, did you also think that? Cause I didn't think

Oh, I didn't think that.

at all. What, hold up, you, you, hold on, let me make sure I understand your question, Ian. Did I think, after watching the trailer, that they, like, double cunnilingused her?

No, I didn't. Actually, when I

went to see Barbie last summer, and the Challengers trailer came on After that, like, scene of the three of them on bed, [00:12:00] the audience got quiet, and you just hear somebody in the back of the audience go, Okay! And the person, the person who went, Okay!

That was me. It me.

was it you.

I was, I was like, Okay, Linnea.

But the, but in the trailer the men don't kiss

they don't.

but they get close they get close

So I I literally but also this could be all of us projecting right I always was like Oh, she's having fun watching these boys go at it is what I took that as

because like I have also made that face like like if I Ian in a threesome loves his partner to like, watch his partner hook up with someone else.

Like, that is, in a threesome, I think that's really hot. I know some people don't, like, you know, whatever anyone likes. But so because I have that in my brain, I'm like, oh, that's hot. I was like, oh, she thinks it's hot because she's getting the boys to like, hook up or maybe like, blow each other or fuck or whatever.

Like, I thought something was going on with the boys. [00:13:00] I will say, I kind of expected a little bit more. I, so, I have a, like, maybe stupid hot take about this, is that, I don't know, everyone was talking about how horny and hot it was, and this scene is, like, this hookup scene is fucking hot. It's hot, I'm not gonna pretend it's not, but, like, that's kind of it.

And then we get an hour and a half more of this without any, like,

No, we get, I, I think, alright, this scene is very hot, yes, and there's also another scene coming up that I think is even hotter, that when we get to it, I'll be like, okay, this was, and it's involving a food item. Patrick holds out the churro and Art's like biting into it. And they're just holding eye contact with each other while it's happening. I'm like, if that

happened between me and somebody else, I'm like, okay, let's call the Uber. Let's let's, [00:14:00] let's, let's clear the rest of our schedules. I'm going to go.

Well, so that that like that tracks on what I said before, with the way that they leap into each other's arms when they win the junior open, like, I just think that they don't get that that's what they're

I think Patrick

does. I think Patrick

I think Patrick's in

touch. I think our,

It's just

I think,

Yeah, I

I think he's clueless, but also not, not down. That's my take. That's my

take. I don't think that this is like

a situation like in Saltburn. one is obsessed with the other and the other is just kind of like what okay, maybe if I'm drunk I think that this is a lot more deep and layered and a little bit more

reciprocal on some levels but not all levels because like you said Ian art was very Easily able to just snip snip And cut Patrick out

of his life, but Patrick was very, very into just whatever the vibe of this was.

And I, I also [00:15:00] have had that happen where like, a straight guy and I have this like, almost, where people are like, are you guys sure you're not fucking? And I'm like, no, no, blah, blah, blah. But then once they get a partner, it's like, who? And like, you know,

I feel like that happens. And so for me, that's another reason why Art Red has like, You know, like I said, I think he would have let Patrick blow him if they were with Tashi in bed. I don't think he would have let Patrick blow him if Tashi was not there. Like, I think then he would have been like, What are you doing? But other than that, I do think, yeah, he might have been down. And there was, like, I do think there was some, like, right? It was reciprocal in the, like, when they are together, they are together way, but, like, Patrick would have been fine with that, and Art would not have been.

Like, Art would not have been content with just them being the relationship in his life, and Patrick would have been.

Yeah, yeah. Alright, we, I, we do need to move on to the rest of the movie, but another point I want to make is that It is 2006, [00:16:00] so I

think that that is, like, people are still, like, wearing Livestrong bracelets, like, unironically. It's fuckin 2006.

I'd like to point out that this is not a Livestrong bracelet. This is a bracelet in memory of my friend, and

No, no, no

No judgment!

that

even if it was, even if it was,

I'mma love you, I'mma love you regardless. I'mma love you I mean

We're gonna have some conversations about

rather big of you.

after that, but yeah, you're all good. I wore one.

I wore one.

We adore our straight

boy! Ha ha

You're all good.

Ha! Ha!

Oh, man. Oh, man.

I'm catching L's in this

Aw, you shut your mouth.

After meeting at a party, Tashi joins Art and Patrick in their hotel room, where all three kiss before Tashi abruptly ends the tryst. She promises to give her phone number to whomever wins the final the next day. So from a writing perspective, I think The conceit of the [00:17:00] movie and the challenge in Challengers is set right here. I love that it always comes back to Tashi being impressed or seeing which one of them is gonna impress her the most. I think her leaving and saying, Whichever one of you wins is gonna get my number, was setting up the power dynamic and the choke hold that she's gonna have. over these men for the next decade plus or so of the film.

So I thought that that was a very key indicator of like, this is what she's about. It's always about tennis and tennis is kind of, I don't know. It's just like, she's aware of the power.

Tennis is kinda

Yeah. Tennis is kind of, my God, I'm trying to think of the word. It's like, Is aphrodisiac the right word?

One of the two things that I wanted to say is that she either in this scene or right before it at the fire, she calls tennis a relationship. And I think it was at the fire because she's talking about her match [00:18:00] against Anna Muller. And she, she's like, you guys don't know it.

Tennis is and Patrick asked her what it is and she goes, it's a relationship and, and he goes, is that what you and Anna Mueller had today? And she goes, it is actually for about 15 seconds there. We were actually playing tennis and we understood each other completely. So did everyone watching. It was like, we were in love or like we didn't exist.

We went somewhere really beautiful together. A that's foreshadowing for the end of the movie. And B, I think that's just her worldview. I think that tennis is the most important thing to her, and who she can have the greatest relationship on the tennis court with is in her eyes, her soulmate. So by her saying, whoever wins out of you two, I'm deciding that's the person that I want to date because you're the better tennis player.

And that's actually, that's the relationship that I give a shit about

Yeah, if you get tennis, you get me, and you understand me. I wanna add on to what you said. For some reason, when you said, they get locked in, in about 15 seconds, they're just, [00:19:00] they understand each other completely. Have you ever seen the Disney Pixar movie, Soul? There's this

concept of someone being in a flow state, or in the zone, and when a, somebody who is dead watches a person experience that, like if somebody gets choked up while they're reading their poetry, or they're playing the piano, really passionately, their soul kind of goes out of their body a little bit and goes into the nether realm because they're tapping into something greater than themselves

by tapping into their passion.

And I think that

if Tashi were in the movie soul, when she's playing tennis, that would be her entering her flow state and just kind of going into

the nether realm a little bit. I think that it feels very spiritual for her. It feels akin to worship. And akin to

just touching something a little bit more celestial.

I think, what that piece of dialogue was [00:20:00] getting at. And, hey, look, we're talking about it. And I didn't have that thought before what you said, Steve.

You said Steve. That's not a judgment either way, I wish I was like, I want to be like that, like, I want to be like, ugh, whatever, stupid. Like, I'll date whoever, I wouldn't fucking care. And like, there's a part of me that is like that, kind of, because I just, I don't care about dating that much, and people will be like, Oh, I'm sure you know, blah blah, you wish you had a, I'm like, I don't really wish I had a boyfriend, I would like, Someone that I'm hanging out with a lot, but like, do I want a boyfriend? Like I like doing my stupid podcast. I like going to bed and having a bunch of pillows. Like I, I like not sharing. And so like, I, I just, I think she was very upfront with who she was from the start and the two men were not. That's not to say she's not an asshole. Cause she also is an asshole, but like, that's okay. Yeah, I, I, I think very much her being, like, whoever wins, gets to date [00:21:00] me, shows that, like, tennis is her. One true love? Because doesn't after she say the, for 15 seconds we were in a relationship, doesn't she then say she hated that woman? Isn't that the woman who she's like, but also she's crazy and a racist, so I hate her. And like, for me, that like, also tells us how Tashi is, right? Cause she's like, yes, for those 15 seconds, this woman and I were connected blah blah blah, but I fucking hate her and she's a dickhead. So I feel like that also, The fact that she felt that way with this person that she hates shows you that she does care more about the tennis than the human interactions.

Great

Very solid point. Patrick wins the match and later signals to art that he had sex with Tashi by placing the ball on the neck of the right racket prior to serving a tick of arts. I love how this tick is going to play a much larger role in the film later. Have you ever had a friend who you were in competition with to get with somebody either romantically or [00:22:00] sexually and they beat you to it and they kind of rubbed it in your face a little bit?

Has that either has that happened to either one of you?

essentially the relationship I had with my best friend growing up through middle school and high school. So shout out to Justin. Yeah, we, we dated a lot of the same girls throughout high school specifically.

I, I think with me, I'm sounding a lot more confident than I actually am. So please, no one get the, the like crazy like notion that I'm this like overconfident like person who, you know, has men throwing themselves at you. That's not me. I will say that anytime there's been a competition, usually I remove myself immediately.

I'm like, I don't care. You two have it. Oftentimes, that makes the person then gravitate more towards me. But I don't do it for that, I do that because I fucking don't care. I'm like, the moment there's like, a love, unless we're all gonna have a threesome, I don't give a shit. Like, I'm like, very like, remove me from this.

My last boyfriend, that's what happened actually. There was a friend of mine who liked [00:23:00] him. We both liked him. That friend was one of the craziest people

Oh no.

my now ex was like, Hey, I just like, I'm, I'm being honest with you, you know, so and so said he also has feelings for me, and I'm just in a spot where I don't know what to do.

And I said, I'll make that decision for you. Remove me from this. I'm not competing. And then he was my boyfriend. But I didn't, I genuinely did not do that, thinking like, well, this'll get him. It's because I, I genuinely am like, I'm not doing this. So I've never actually like, Had that, because I will be the one that's like, I'm done here.

And I know that I actually have had a lot of gay friends that will be, like, competitive like that. But Charlie, I'm curious of your answer.

Oh my God. I don't know if I've ever unpacked this within myself. Look at me asking a question. I don't know the answer to for myself.

I would say that when it comes to that energy, I am okay. Here's how I usually show up in those spaces. I'm like, all [00:24:00] right, Friends, who do we think is cute? Okay, you think he's cute? Alright, he's kinda cute, go talk to him. Oh, that was nice, I think he wants to make out with you. I I think that I am kind of Puck from A Midsummer Night's Dream, that way, kind of, in how I go about

romantically

You are chaotic.

instigating things in, like, bar settings, I'm like, oh, that's fun, that's cool, I just, I want everybody to be happy, you know, and I, I don't have a, well, maybe I did when I was younger, I don't have this finite belief of, there's only one

person, there's That is a match for everybody.

I think that everyone has multiple matches and I just like your friends don't

fulfill every need of yours. I think that sometimes when you're out in a bar or a club setting, there are different

people who would catch your attention for a number of reasons. And if someone [00:25:00] that I'm interested in

isn't giving me energy. I would just float to the next person. I don't give a fuck. You know, it is what it is. Especially, I think that the least sexy thing you could do is not read someone's energy if they're not vibing with you. that tends to keep me safe. I tend to like really pick up on

if it's not a vibe,

and just move to the next with, Which, like you Ian, does have very interesting

results. But that is all I will say.

like, UEA, does have very interesting

I can't say that on,

the pod, but there have been many good

many good nights, many good nights.

we all knew the answer to that the second you said that question.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man.

To quickly answer Ian's question from when I had to deal with that in high school, I think [00:26:00] that's the reason why I listen to so much Yellowcard still, honestly. we got, we got emo because of it, which just, if that gives you an indication that I did not win most of the time. So I think I similarly, I, maybe I tried too hard is actually probably my issue.

So maybe I should have tried more of your reverse psychology by accident.

I was just saying, it is, it's not on purpose, yes. Heh,

Steve, you, you would've, you would've won with me or Charlie. Heh,

with us now.

continued,

Yeah.

was going to say that's, you, you just listed reason A through Z, why I only teach fitness classes in the Castro. So I, I do know that.

ha, ha, ha, ha. Listen, motherfucker, don't get too cocky. Heh, heh, heh,

Oh man. Oh man. Okay. So later. Tashi and Art play college tennis at Stanford University, while Patrick turns professional and begins a long distance relationship with Tashi. Art suggests to Tashi that Patrick does not love her. When Patrick visits Stanford, Art similarly suggests to him that Tashi [00:27:00] does not take the relationship seriously. I gotta hand it to Art. I think that Art is doing some Great Rome level politicking. He's being Weasley, and I love that Patrick clocks him being Weasley, and is like, look at you. That was interesting.

reason why, like, that lends more to my theory of Patrick was a lot more aware of what's going on. Because Patrick, at first I was like, is he being sarcastic? No, he's not. He genuinely likes, and I think it's because he liked that art cared that much. That it bothered art so much, Patrick could make that in his head be like, because he cares about me. Because he cares about this competition between us. And we have this competition and it's still going. But Art was genuinely just trying to get to Tashi and break them up. He wasn't going to try to fuck Patrick. But I think that's why Patrick liked it. And I kind of love that he picked up on it immediately. Called him out on it and was like, no, I appreciate it. Puts his arm around [00:28:00] him, is like, you know, I, I love that you're doing this. I was like, all right. I, I, like, genuinely thought, Is he plotting something? And no, he just appreciated it.

Or

offered him a churro, let him bite into it.

I think, honestly, that churro

Move the seat

it was, I thought that moment was hotter than the makeout scene, because it was like, one, it's a phallic object. That's edible and who doesn't love cinnamon and sugar together and just them like getting super close I'm like, oh, this is like I wonder if art was aware of what Patrick was doing.

It was it was very

For me, again, that lends it to, Yeah, I'd let him suck my dick. But like,

I'm not gay. Because it was an intimate moment. And right, like, you can have intimate moments. You can, right? Like, me and my straight best friend, there is like nothing sexual at all, like, he is like my brother. And I've had friends be like, so like, you secretly like, have hooked up, right?

I'm like, no, [00:29:00] we haven't. Like, he's like my brother. Like, we love each other. And like, I've had other friends misinterpret that like, intimacy, but it really is, we're just super comfortable with each other, so we don't care. So I even sometimes in media have to remind myself, well people have thought you and your best friend, like, his ex girlfriend when we were all drunk once, put her arm around both of us and was like, tell me, you guys have fucked at least once, right?

And we were like, no! And she was like, you can tell me, I won't be mad! And we were like, no, we never have.

Um.

Have been mad for

She absolutely would have been.

She would have.

Yeah and like, I think about that, because like, that caught me so off guard when she said that, and I was like, the hell is she talking about? So I like, even when I'm watching media, I have to remind myself, there are friendships that are super intimate that there isn't a sexual thing, but here I do

think, at least, at least on Patrick's end.

Yeah, yeah. I just find it, I find it interesting. Steve, what did you think of that moment?

I just loved the glee in Patrick's voice when he just pulls him in and he goes [00:30:00] you fucking snake like the He's just like oh, yeah game is on like I see it right away. It was super fun it's funny that we're talking about this sequentially rather than the fact that the film jumps around a bunch between the match that's happening and these flashbacks that kind of correlate with the score of the match.

I find myself liking this movie more because we're talking about it sequentially, which I don't know if that's a detriment

No, no.

we can talk, we can talk about it when we get

I, that, I will say that drove me nuts, the like,

ping ponging back and forth.

because it was, it also like, You know, and I wasn't even like, looking at my phone, but if I looked away, I would've missed a flashback, and there was no, like, there was no good indicator that it was a flashback. Like, they look the same, they all look the they're still the same, like, and I get it, they're not gonna put them in like, stupid wigs or makeup or whatever, but like, they all look the same, so if I missed

the, like, wording, I'd be like, wait, what the fuck is this? And it didn't matter that

Super subtle

Yeah. So that, for me, that was like super distracting and I like the movie, this isn't [00:31:00] like, I felt like those weren't interesting enough for them to be so many interspliced. If it was like, I don't know, like back in 2006 when, you know, aliens invaded Earth and were flashing back to that, it's like, okay, I get it, that's like, the action is happening there, that is a distinct setting that is very different, and now I sound like, I feel like then it's like, ooh, you're a Marvel movie fan, but I don't even mean that like I wanted that for this, I just mean like, to be going back and forth there, for me there has to be an interesting thing. reason and there wasn't quite enough and I would have liked this sequentially. I don't know. I even thought starting with already her being married to him was a bad idea. Like I was like, I don't like that. I know

that she already ends up with art because it took the attention out for me. I was like, well, Patrick's all just wanting to fuck art.

He doesn't

care. And that's how I read it from the start through. Like there was no point where it was like an epiphany. It was like, okay. her

interesting, very layered. We're, we're getting, we're creeping up on the present. [00:32:00] Time of this movie, so I'm excited to get to more of that stuff. Tashi and Patrick have an argument over her attempts to coach Patrick in tennis, and Patrick Skips her

match as a result. While playing, Tashi tears her ACL.

Patrick comes to see Tashi, but Tashi demands he leave art sides with her ending the friendship with Patrick art aids in Tasha's recovery, but she's too injured to resume her tennis career. You know what, I be real. I did not like her character in this.

she's an asshole, but we only really see her in scenes with people that she's an asshole to. I think that there is a missing character here where she. Like, I wanted to just see a different side of her, like, every character that she is in a scene with has either been trying to fuck her, they're married to her, they're obsessed with her, they want to be with her husband, it's her child, it's, like, the mother or mother in [00:33:00] law or, like, somebody who works for her, I think that a scene that's missing from this That would have been cool, would have been Tashi, by herself, at a bar, and somebody recognizes her, another woman, who's like a big fan, and it's kinda just like, oh my god, what was that like?

You know, just, what was it like to play tennis, like, in your heyday, or something like that, I just, I feel like I never saw her light up, and I never saw, in her character, the feeling she described, Of getting lost on the field. It felt like there was just no one home, like the most. That I liked her was when Patrick and Art first noticed her from afar. I think so?

I think that's right.

I thought the scenes with her and her mom and her and her kids were those. For [00:34:00] me, those were those scenes of like, showing her she was good with her kids. She was, you know, loving with them. She was just very hard. I don't know, no, I don't know. Steve made me just speak to this, but I will say friend wise, I am attracted to that type of woman for at least

friendship.

Like, I'm like, yes, you will just tell me what to do, and I will fucking listen. You look gorgeous, like, you're kinda mean, you're confident, you're smart. That is the type of person I like being friends with. That is the type of woman I end up being friends

with. Because I, I I like, gravitate towards that. and I think Tashi probably would have had a gay friend that she was nicer to than either

Oh, absolutely. She definitely has talked about their dynamic to that gay friend. Has been like,

you know what's interesting? Don't fucking tell anybody. We were in this hotel room, and I could totally see that there was like a, but then I ended up marrying art, so here we are. That, alright, That,

conversation also would have been fun to see, [00:35:00] like, her impression, cause they never talk about it.

That would have been,

Yeah.

Cool to bring up.

Well, so my, not the ex I talked different ex had a boyfriend. Best friend that was like in love with him so badly that her and her husband got divorced and he said you love Insert X's name more than me, and she said yes, and like that led to their divorce And she was mean. She hated me because I was fucking him and she was not, and like, she was totally mean to me.

Every time we, like, saw each other, she came into my work when I was working at Barnes Noble and, like, didn't speak to me until her child came over and recognized me, and I was like, Hey! And she was like, Oh, hi. Like, I could not believe how nice she was to my ex, cause she was mean to everyone else around her,

And that's what I kept thinking of with Tashi. I was like, Oh, cause she's nice to her kids. And this woman was a good mother to her daughter, but not to like, not nice to anyone else in her orbit. And that's what I felt like with Tashi. But you're right. I would have liked [00:36:00] to see her with any friend where she's telling, talking about them because you're right.

I bet she would be like, well, these boys, they were about to fuck each other. And then I left because whatever.

know that Tashi is definitely on reddit and like spilling tea. It's like, all right, so I am female at such an age and my husband and one of his former friends, we cut him off, but blah, blah, blah. What do you all think? I got a bunch of like comments and upvotes, but I digress. In 2009, Tashi reconnects with art, becoming his coach and girlfriend. In 2011, Tashi and Art are now engaged, and Art's career is on the rise. Tashi and Patrick run into each other at the Atlanta Open and have a one night stand, which Art notices. Boys, what did we think of this period of time? Like, also, why did they get married? Like, it feels like a very political marriage, like a very It has arranged energy [00:37:00] around it, I don't

But to her not to

Yeah!

which is weird. Yeah, I don't know how you even keep track kept track of those dates cuz I was like, where are we when they fucked?

I could not like when they had when they fucked I was like wait Is this present day like what year is like I could not Keep track of where we were in the timeline of the movie at that point cuz that was like a flashback in a flashback Wasn't it cuz it was like, yeah, this is all stuff I would have cut out of the movie, like this, I felt like was where I kind of started to dip a little bit where I was like, all right, come on.

Yeah, Steve.

I don't, yeah, I don't know why we had it. I just like, maybe just so it was a, basic, yes I do know why we had it. Is so they could make the ending of the movie more dramatic. Cause it connects, like this moment is connected back to a couple different times when we move forward. I can see why they're married.

Because. Art's so obsessed with Tashi that I feel like the only way that he would let her Be his coach if it was also if they were like roman quote unquote romantically involved with each other And i'm sure [00:38:00] she could fake it enough to like that's the only route for her dreams. I think we Discount the fact that like Tashi was going to be the greatest They say at one point that Anna Muller, someone that she handled in, like, straight sets, just won her, like, I think she was, in this scene, she's watching a television, basically being like, Anna Muller just won her, like, multiple Wimbledon, no one's able to challenge her, and basically being like, this should have been me, it was going to be me, and that's all crumbled away, so she's gone down the only road that she sees For the best tennis, like everything is back to her tennis relationship for her.

It's, I can't be the greatest. So how can I make this person the greatest? And I know that this person will listen to me in a way that my ex boyfriend wouldn't listen to me, which we like also sort of skipped over. Like he just wanted to fuck and she wanted to talk about a serve. And, and so like, that's, that's constantly the priority in her life.

Maybe that's she was just feeling a low moment and feeling sorry her for for [00:39:00] herself and the way that her tennis life had Developed and so she decided to go and fuck this dude because she felt low maybe That's the only bridge that I can make because there's no like There's no tennis like for atashi in my mind.

Everything comes down to what's the tennis move? And that's why his offer later in the movie is so enticing to her because it's a tennis offer. It's not a relationship offer

And I, think he knows that when

he finally figures, yeah, he finally figures that out, and, and maybe that's another thing that we're realizing, or that I'm realizing right now, is that he has that, he sees her low because of her tennis life, and he swoops in in that moment to take advantage of it.

Maybe that's, we're not giving Patrick enough credit in that moment. Heh.

this is going to sound extremely slutty. I'm also a person that sometimes I'm like, Oh, whatever, I can just fuck this person. Like, there's been many situations where I'm like, not really interested. And I don't mean this, there's no consent issue, I am very much like, Meh, sure. And like, [00:40:00] I'm not really that into it, but it's like, We're here, sure, whatever.

I have like, Fully been that person and that's how I read her where like she did want to talk tennis But she was like, yeah, we can fuck too. Whatever

well, one I want to give Zendaya her flowers because Watching this after watching Dune II, which I liked her better in Dune II, because I think that was the better movie. Because Dune II was just incredible, but also, This character and her fully committing to this career monster who is so laser focused that everything else is kind of in her way or distraction. I think that that takes someone talented to play and I think she did it really well. Yeah, she was a fucking beast in this movie. I think when she connected to Patrick, I think in a way what he said, I think that he kind of still has some power

over her because their argument that they had in the dorm room the last time they had [00:41:00] sex before this time was going on in her head before she had her injury. So I think what he said through her so much that it led to her to slip up.

It was essentially about control. Like, you can't control me, I know what this is, I'm not gonna be a fucking simp for you. And I think that that, on some level, did get into her brain a little bit.

That's fair, because I did think she was already an asshole, like I thought she was being an asshole. So I don't, because I'm like, was she getting harder as it was going along? Was it supposed to be she used to be like more like easy breezy? Or is like this how she always was? Because I kept thinking like, oh, the accident made her harder.

And then I remembered that like, no, that flashback takes place before she has her accident. So like, she was kind of always just fully hyper focused on tennis. So I don't know. I, I don't know. Also, I know we talk about how hot the men are. Everyone is so hot in this movie. I was even like, Oh, [00:42:00] she looks great.

And that's the dorm room

Yeah. Yeah. They all,

I'll say it for you, Steve.

No, I agree. Hard

or, or, or Steve can say the straight dude thing. Whenever a straight guy finds another guy attractive. That's a good looking dude. Like, I feel like that's how men, that's how

that's how straight men say, like, good looking, man. They're like, it's good looking, dude.

My straight trainer said that. He was like, Yeah, you're a good looking dude. And I was like, I know what that means in straight lingo.

Yeah. Yeah. It, it is a singing Sierra compliment, but like, dude. I think putting the dude, I can't believe we're talking about this, putting dude

at the

I know.

like, de sexualizes

Is

no

It like, it does something to it, so like, the good, the good looking is almost a little, like, not threatening.

have Kenan from Good Burger to thank for that. For the, his, his, his absolute blanket use of dude in, in all of, in all

that why I used to use, I still use [00:43:00] dude too much maybe?

I'm a dude, he's

we're all dudes.

and we're all dudes, hey. It's literally the song.

Oh man, oh man. All right, so, speaking of which, speaking of dudes, Tashi and Art are a wealthy power couple with a young daughter. Art is only one U. S. Open title away from a career grand slam, but has been struggling due to injury and age. Tashi enters Art as a wild card in a challenger event in New Rochelle, New York.

hoping to boost his confidence and return him to form. Patrick, who is living out of his car, will unpack that later, cause, the fuck. And, scrapping by on winnings from the lower circuits, happens to enter new Rochelle Challenger as well. I'm gonna say this before I forget. That line of Toshi looking at Patrick and being like what are you, cosplaying as an unhoused person, living in your car, your parents have money, I wish that that would have been explored a little bit more, cause it was the [00:44:00] first thing about Patrick's character outside of art and Toshi that really made my ears perk up, like, huh. I wonder what that's about. I wonder what's going on with him and his parents. What did you think of skipping ahead and just seeing him in this state and them in this, it appears, loveless marriage?

I, again, this is where my interest again started to dip here. But, I was curious, I was like, what did I miss? And I'm glad I didn't miss anything. I thought I missed When she said that line, I was like, wait a minute, what? Like I thought there was something that I missed, but there wasn't. That was like, it?

We didn't like, address any of that, right?

No.

Okay. I really was like, I must have missed something. Because I was like, oh, he's like genuinely like, you know, have struggling with money issues. And then when she said that I was like, she's being sarcastic, like what? So I would have liked to see that explored. I don't find a loveless marriage. I know this whole movie, the, the thing I can say about it, all of this reminded me of a book I would have read when I was in [00:45:00] grad school and would have fucking loved. Like, I would have loved this. I would have thought it was like, the homoeroticism would have really got me.

Yeah. Whereas now at like 41. I'm like just suck a dick or don't like Come on and like but this was a book I would have loved this book as a like 23 year old

grad student I found all that really dull.

Well, it dragged on. It dragged on, you know?

And When actors are playing a lack of passion, which I think Zendaya was playing in her scenes with Art, she played it so well that I wasn't passionate

about the scene. And I think that that kind of weirdly made me not care for her character, because Good thing that she cared about so much was taken away from her. Cody did have to wake me up a little bit at this point cause I started to boze off. I was like but, but, I did really appreciate the scene of Patrick on a date. Oh my god, this scene, this poor [00:46:00] woman, this poor woman.

I know!

Oh man, he's on a date with her. barely paying attention, leaves her to talk to Tashi, then comes back, makes out with her so that he has somewhere to crash for the night, and she is just like, okay,

the look on her

The look on her face. She was aware of what was happening.

Doesn't even explain.

Cause at first it looked like she was gonna deny him, right? Cause she

was like, what the fuck? And then she was kind of like, alright, sure.

Well, I mean, Maybe if it's just gonna be a hit and quit, look girl, I get

it. I Get

it. Get that,

He's hot.

lady nut. You know, I think that's really important. It's very vital. But,

I would, I would put an exorbitant amount of money on that. She did not get one lady nut through that experience. I would put a lot of money on the under for whatever that was set at.

Yes, I

I don't, I don't think Patrick's doing

oh no, [00:47:00] oh no, oh no,

I would have liked to know what was going on with Patrick because I didn't feel bad for him. But then when she said that, I wasn't sure if like, she was just being, I don't, you saying it, I'm like, no, I think she was being honest. Like she knew that he had family money, but I, don't they mention like pushing 40? At one point, I think they do. That they're supposed to be like, 35

Wow.

One of them, one of them mentions it.

Bed tracks.

Yeah So I was just curious, I was like, well maybe he doesn't talk to his family, or like, like, I was very curious because I felt bad for him, but I would feel less bad if, like she said, he was like cosplaying as someone without money. So I'm like not sure how I felt at watching it. I was very much like, oh well She was just saying that but now with you saying it. I'm like, oh, no, she wasn't just saying that So I'm curious like now I'm like, I don't know. I don't I don't feel bad for him then Why was he doing that? Like

Yeah, yeah. It was, it was a choice. I found it very intriguing. I wish they would've done more with it, [00:48:00] though.

I wonder if something got cut. That made it make more sense or something like that, cause they, I mean, they never talk about it

starting at Opposite ends of the seating art and Patrick advanced through the brackets until they find themselves Facing each other

in the final the day before the final match Patrick attempts to reconnect with art But art rebuffs him in this gives a lot of credit to your theory about where they are just in term

Right. This, this scene is basically what, like cemented my, that's my opinion. And that's what's

happening,

hmm.

because art truly means every mean thing. He says he means it right. When he is like, I, I don't know that this is exactly, it's like the Mad Men quote. That's what it's is in my head. But when he is like, I think Patrick asked something like. Well, blah, blah, when I think of you, and he's like, I don't think of you, like, I don't care. And I think Art meant it. Like, I don't think Art was just like trying to be, he was also being an asshole, but I think he was, like, sometimes the cruelest thing is to be honest, right? I think it's Connor from Angel Vincent Carthizer [00:49:00] when he's like, he says something like, I think, I think blah blah blah of you, and Don Draper is there in the elevator, and he's like, I don't think of you

Ooh. In the first season before Pete Cooper had to save Don's ass and cover for him. Okay. Yeah, I remember that. Mm hmm.

never even watched the show, but I'm extremely online, so I've seen that, like,

clip a lot. Sensing

Sensing art's disillusionment. Patrick asked Tashi to coach him to a last winning season. She refuses but keeps the slip of paper with his number on it the evening before the final Art tells Tashi he plans to retire at the end of the season, whether he wins the open or not. Tashi is unhappy but reluctantly accepts art. That night, Tashi secretly meets with Patrick to ask him to throw the match to Art, claiming it to boost his confidence and to save their marriage. Patrick is disgusted and he and Tashi have a passionate argument before having sex inside his car. He agrees to throw the match. Okay, now [00:50:00] I want

just laughing. Cause that just sounds so ridiculous when you

it really

out loud.

it really does. It really does.

Like, this is like a telenovela my grandma would've watched.

It is. She like spits in his face. There's like these fierce winds blowing. I just think that it's a little,

Garbage

everywhere

Oh, man. I was so ready.

to signify that they're

trash.

people. Honestly, when this scene happened, I was so ready, so ready for the movie to be over. I was so over it.

We don't even, we already had the threesome scene, and then like, we, it felt like that was the kicker, and everything else was the lead up, and it's like, but we already got the kicker, like, we're not gonna get another, I feel like this should have ended with a really sexy threesome and it would have, like, made a little bit more sense. But yeah, I, I will say a little bit it started to pick up for me, but I was just like, This is getting too [00:51:00] straight for something that's a bit Like, it felt like the whole conceit And again, it's 2006, right? But it felt like the whole conceit was Look, Patrick wants to fuck Art and their relationship is homoerotic, and like, it only went downhill with that dynamic moving forward after the hotel scene, right?

Cause like, then Art marries Toshi, then they're not speaking, and like, I don't know, like, A lot of people's criticism of Saltburn was that they never hooked up, right? And we talked about this, like, it made sense that they didn't hook up. Here it felt like, this is what the movie's about and they're not hooking up?

Like, don't give me a 20 minute tennis match scene and then they not fuck. Like,

Ian, that's what fanfiction is for.

but it should be able to be happening in the

I know, I know. It needs to be. It needs to be. Oh man. Also, before I move on, I want to say that before I saw this movie in New York City the beginning of last month I loved the score, but by the end of this movie, I was so sick of it. I feel like

Oh really?

they used it so [00:52:00] much. It just, and it felt like the same song after a while.

And at some points it felt like the score came in at inappropriate moments. I like this score for when they're playing tennis and when things are really, you know, You know, active and physical, but when people are having a conversation that you just have like It got a little distracting and I was getting a little cranky because I was tired in the theater So

I, I will say, I, I really like the score. I think Trent

me too. It's a great score It's

scores.

But there were some scenes when I was like, wait, wait, wait, we're playing this music a little too loud. And I'm like Nana

that score Wow

Like at the end of the sauna scene, the music starts blasting while they're still mid conversation.

And I was like, what, what are they saying? Like, I mean, they did.

I brought a notebook into the theater with like a pen and paper and I was writing notes. And I wrote at one [00:53:00] point that the square was giving like Astro lounge and mass effect to like, just that pulsating sci fi video game sort of feel. I just want to quickly, this is the only take I want to give about the sauna scene is by one of my biggest nitpicks of this movie is that there was not nearly enough sweat on those two men during the sauna scene.

Which only made it more pronounced when they were literally pouring buckets during their final match. So that's my nitpick as someone who now frequently goes in a sauna at my gym. It's not enough sweat. I wanted way more sweat on them as they were swinging dick at each other. But anyway, that's my tangent.

Steve's a sauna connoisseur, he

knows what that's like. Also, swingin dick at each other, very good.

yeah, yeah, that might have, yeah, how you're an ally.

it also would have impacted my score going forward, but here we are. But I digress.

The day of the final, the day of the final, Tashi watches as Art and Patrick play. Patrick wins the first game. set in Art II. As Art takes the lead late [00:54:00] in the final game, Patrick begins to throw the match through double faults. However, he stops short of losing and instead signals that he had slept with Tashi using Art's serve tick. Stunned, Art allows Patrick to score until they are again

tied. During the break, Art and Patrick furiously Trade Groundstrokes but begins smiling as they continue. The rally intensifies until both jump for a valley at the net.

As Art slams the ball over, he collides with Patrick over the net and the two embrace while Tashi leaps from her seat to cheer for them.

That's the movie. It ends on an embrace and just I will say that I was a big fan of that camera angle where the camera was the tennis ball and it was just going back and forward.

That made me lean forward. I was like, oh shit.

So

shot from under the court too was really really cool [00:55:00] That they use where you're like, you're almost like underneath the ground looking up at them and like the, you see the lines, but the court was invisible. You see the sky above them. That looked really cool too. However, I have some serious nitpicks about how this movie concluded.

If we want to jump right into it, it's also worth saying, cause we didn't really like talk much about the, we just went through the plot of this movie sequentially, but we, we sort of mentioned the, the jumpy nature of it all, but I think the main. plot structure thing to hook into is that When one of them wins a set they technically also won Tashi in that moment So when Patrick takes the first set That's after he wins in the flashback in the Junior Championship, and he gets Toshi's number, and they head into college, and they're dating.

When Art wins the second set, they're married now, and he's a prof like, he's in the professional setting that he's in, and so, y you're kind of set up going into this third set being like, okay, like, you understand sports. Someone

Mm [00:56:00] hmm.

And so, technically nobody won. Was the, and I was in a theater that ended up being pretty full and a couple of people just kind of went what just, what just hap, what just happened?

What just, who won? Like what is, what's the resolution basically? And so, I step back and Erin, who I went and saw this with, had a much better, like, she had the much better 10, 000 foot view on it, and she was like, well, if you go back to the, like, they, she saw them embrace each other fully in the relationship of tennis, which was the rabbit she had been chasing ever since that moment.

That she beat Anna Muller and so she was celebrating seeing this beautiful love between them come to fruition in this moment of tennis But I think if you're a person who understands sports and understands the structure of the film and the fact that technically whoever wins the set I guess is gonna win Toshi,

But then no one

Yeah, it

was

the

just found the ending weird. But also I wonder if I knew tennis more as a [00:57:00] sport, I would have appreciated it way more. When I was watching it, I found myself a little, just eyes glazed over like, okay, we're playing tennis. But one thing that I did think was really charming is the shots of the audience while the tennis ball was going back and forth in the audience was like,

That's

I thought that was cool. And I also loved when they went back to that shot and Tashi wasn't looking back and forth. Cause she knew that like they weren't in it.

I do, Tashi's reaction a little bit confused me, right? Because. I thought it was a beautiful fucking shot of him, like, slow motion, you think he's hitting the racket. I actually thought he was gonna he was aiming to hit Patrick with his racket, is what I thought. I was like, oh shit, he's gonna like, hit him.

That's what he's like,

so mad he's gonna hit him. But then they embrace, and we it's they've embraced already, and we pan to Tashi, and she goes like, Fuck! And then she smiles, and I was like, wait a minute. I'm confused with his reaction. Like, I I [00:58:00] needed, like one or the other, but I, cause I just assumed, I was like, Oh, she's furious. And we cut to her and she is, but then she smiles. Some of this movie felt a little, and I, I can say, I say this about a lot of things I like, and I do think I liked this movie, felt a little masturbatory at times when it's like, look, it's a movie with a

Yeah.

M and I'm like, I fucking get it. Like, come on. And that felt like a very like capital M, like, or capital C cinema ending where it's like, yeah. And I looked up a bunch of, like, interviews, and they said that they kept it ambiguous on purpose. So they wanted it to be

like, Look, you don't know who won, but like, if we're watching such long tennis matches, what the fuck am I watching them for? And I don't know, I guess I needed a little, just a little bit more, I don't need, I don't even really need to know who won, but I needed some kind of definitive answer, and this ends with no definitive answer, in any sense of any plot that they had and, like I said, if this [00:59:00] were a book, I would have loved it when I was like 23.

If I revisited it now at 41, I probably would have hated it and been like, man, I was pretentious as shit back then. But yeah, it just like, I don't think we had enough I don't know, it didn't feel that earned for me, of them coming back together, because Art very much did not give a shit every other time they talked about their like, history and their relationship and I could even buy that like, you know, you said this earlier Charlie that like, well, Art maybe would have been down, but he just wasn't pursuing it, but he might have been down. Maybe this was like Art being like, wait a minute. I will suck his dick. But like, I needed, I needed like, something. I, I don't need it telegraphed with people saying it, but I needed just a little bit more of like, what is happening? Because, like you said, Steve, if, I'm not a tennis fan, I'm not a sports fan, but I'm like, well that wouldn't happen, that makes no sense. Like, they're playing a really important match, and what the fuck happens after they've hugged each other over the net? Like, what is, what is, what penalties are like, called for that? [01:00:00] Like,

Well, exactly. So I think if you're gonna leave it ambiguous you need to cut before he makes contact with the

yeah. Yes, I would agree. Yeah.

Because if you, if you see them both in slow motion, where like art is or art is in the air, flying in the air, about to smash the ball down and you see Patrick about to receive, that's going to mean everything that it means.

And you see Tashi looking frightened or excited or whatever. Like if you're going to leave it ambiguous, you can't give us the opportunity to nitpick the fact that there were so the, so basically. To my understanding of tennis, Art would have lost that point because he went through the net, even though he smashed the ball on the other side of the court.

So technically, I don't know if it was, I think it was, Match point in Art's favor, so it would have gone back to Deuce, I think, which means they would have just had to keep playing.

Right, because they can't, it doesn't end,

Right, If there's, yeah,

So I think, I think Tashi's stand up and yelling the come [01:01:00] on, which is what she yells at the end of her match where she bests Anna Muller.

Is that same indication of, like, that is that 15 seconds of

I completely, completely agree. I think that's what that come on was

she saw the connection and she lived vicariously through it.

exactly. But that said, like, to end the movie there with the rest of it being a I guess I guess the argument for it being ambiguous that I think about it right now is that it doesn't matter. This is That's the carrot we were chasing, is that beautiful moment of tennis and relationship through it that Tashi sees, rather than who who wins and gets to fuck, basically, is what I think we were Like, maybe hoping for, but that was where the ending

That's, see, I was not chasing that. That's like, I had 0. 0, I had negative interest. And who the fuck is playing tennis and winning what? Like, you could like, be like, we're going to play tennis. Fade out, cut to them walking back into the room being like, Well, I won that match, and I would be very

happy. Like, I

just don't need it. And like, I, I don't [01:02:00] know, there's, It takes place, the, well, the start of it is, what, 2006 we said? That makes sense for like, I just, there's something annoying about, and it's not queerbaiting because they do make out and whatever, but like they're, and I don't, I'm not one of those people that overuses that phrase because I fucking hate when people do that. There was like something that felt a little like Teen Wolf

of it all, where it's like, Look, these hot guys are shirtless next to each other. They've just once, Ooh, they're looking at each other. Ooh, they're sitting near each other. And it's like, well, great. Well, what are they doing about it? And that feels very, heterosexual writing

queer stories. And again, I don't mean to be that person who's extremely online saying like, regurgitating dumb bullshit buzz phrases, and I'm trying not to be, but like, for me, I very, it's like, just suck his dick or don't, like I, what am I doing? What am I doing here? Because I was not, Chasing the high of tennis. I was interested in the dynamic.

I if anything I was more I had no interest in Zendaya's, Characters Tashi's. I mean she didn't really have an arc, right? She didn't really [01:03:00] she kind of was the same throughout most of it and I would have liked to be more interested in

her Character, but I just was not have either of you I think I brought this up in our salt burn recording So now I'm just repeating myself if either of you read a separate piece by John Knowles You Because again, that, like, that whole book, I was in, I read it in high school, and then I read it in undergrad, and my critique of that book was, those boys needed to hook up. Like, I remember in a writing class in college, I said, Well, they didn't have sex, so I don't know what the point of this book was, because it's like, a homoerotic friendship that leads to the one kid not, they're like, they always, like, jumped in a lake from a tree. And the big climax of the book is the guy who was in love with his straight best friend pushes, like, and he, like, shakes the branch they're on, so he falls, and he ends up, like, paralyzing himself.

That is the end of that book, and I have never, like, that made me so angry reading it, cause it's like, We spent a whole book on homo a homoerotic relationship and instead of just letting them hook [01:04:00] up the guy gets paralyzed Like that's that's what we end on I just like those are stories that I'm like very tired of I think I'm like and you know I said at the top I'm okay with like it being A gay guy's in love with the straight guy, the straight guy has no interest.

I'm okay with that. Because that happens, right? But like, I don't know, I And this happens too, I'm sure. There's homoeroticism and nothing, it doesn't go anywhere. But like, as a plot, as a movie, I don't know, like, what What would you all say is the point of this? Like, what is the, like What story are we telling if we're ending on That.

Is that too

grumpy? That might

I think the point, the point, the point of this movie is have an open marriage and go to therapy.

You know, that is definitely the

Like I.

from this.

It's like, just have threesome.

much.

The point, the point of challengers is just

just have it, just have it. But yeah, I think that's as great a point as any to go to our, and I'm [01:05:00] such a nerd, our, our racket ratings

for, yeah. So

good.

you can go first. One out of five, one to five rackets. Like what do you judge this movie? Like, what's your, what's your racket rating?

know I've complained a lot about it, but also I do think it was like a gorgeous movie. Everyone's acting was A plus. So, I think I would give it I don't know that it's a movie, I told Steve this before recording that like, this is a movie I felt like I needed to watch like two or three times to see actually where I landed on how I felt about it, and I, but I have no interest in watching it that many more times. But I still think, I don't know, I'm like maybe a 2. 5, maybe

a 3, racket, somewhere in there, because I do think it was like a well, even if I don't love all the plot, I think it was a really well made movie. Maybe not for me like maybe it's just not a movie for me, which is okay But I do think it was like well made and [01:06:00] well put together and blah blah

blah. So I can't like I don't Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, so 2. somewhere in the middle there

hmm. Steve?

we'll make three quarters of a racket for you. first of all, before I give my racket rating, Ian, I just like to pitch you on a new show idea, just suck his dick or don't an examination of queer baiting and media. it seems that's, that's my free show idea for you to take that or leave it however you want.

Yeah, of course. I think I'm gonna give this one two rackets. It was, it was tough to follow. It, I think it, it does give capital M movie vibes, but I think my biggest problem was it told us for two hours that tennis was the most important thing until it blatantly ignored the tennis at the end, and I think that's like, that was hard for me to get over especially walking out of the movie.

It like really caused me to. Missed the point until Aaron and I talked about it and I like actually had time to like read the wiki back and figure out what had happened for myself. Maybe [01:07:00] because I was so distracted by the fact that he had flown through the net and we're just not going to, and we fade to black.

So it's, it's, it's a, it's a dose rackets for me.

Yeah I'm gonna land on giving this two and a half rackets, Yeah, I this film isn't it's not a no for me. I I liked parts of

it, but I just It didn't really grip me, you know, it didn't, I didn't really care. I was, I was titillated and I was interested in like where all the homoeroticism would go, but then it

went nowhere.

Then it went nowhere.

then everybody was mean and facetious and underhanded, which I feel like is something that audiences eat up nowadays, given like

how successful Succession was, and just, I'm not somebody who enjoys just too Plus hours of people being nasty to each other. So I don't think this movie was really my cup of tea, but at the same [01:08:00] time, performances were great.

The writing is nothing to shrug at because having to juggle all those time periods and figure out what every character would be thinking and feeling is really hard. So my hats off to Justin, who did a wonderful job with the screenplay. I also. Love the director so much. I definitely loved call me by your name a lot more because there was

a love story, an actual love

story

to latch on to.

And even that, I, I will say, there was times when I was like, is this boring?

yeah, but then I loved it.

you know? And also that film was just showing they were in Italy, right? Okay.

Yeah. That's great. Italy somewhere, somewhere exotic.

we're we're dumb

Americans. What do

we're stupid Americans. We

need to get a, get a map of the world as a shower curtain to get better at geography. But yeah, it was, it was okay.

Charlie, can I ask you a question? [01:09:00] If Art and Patrick had had sex in the first act of the movie, do you think you would have been more invested in, like, the overall arc of everything? Just knowing that there was that underlying, like, physical evidence of their affection for each other that they maybe could have, like, used a little bit more in the triangle of it all?

Cause I think something that was missing for me And I think we talked about it as the fact that like art disconnects himself from Patrick and only focuses on Tashi while it seems like Patrick's focused on both of them. Like, do you think that that was what was missing or do you think it was

I don't even know if it had to be sex per se, but more scenes together in present

day. You know, more More care. Like, I think I heard something really important a really long time ago about writing and what makes great stories great. What makes a great story great is when at least two characters really care about each other. And I didn't get that from this

movie. It felt pretty cold. Like, one [01:10:00] character cared about another character.

Like, Itachi didn't care. Felt like a simp for Toshi

I want to answer, I wanna answer your question, Steve, because I

feel like if it ended, They embrace on the court, and then we find out that they are fucking and they are together. That would have been a way more

gratifying ending for me. I don't know that that would have been earned in the movie we had.

That would, I don't know. But I don't know that them reconnecting was even earned, because I felt like art truly did not

give a shit about it. So I don't know.

Yeah, that would have really They would have really had to explain the connection that tennis opens up between people more than just that one line that Tashi gives

If everyone has like a boner When they're playing tennis,

Yeah. When you're all When you're also all waiting for them to make out with each other, she's explaining this.

So I don't think that that's what you're concentrating on at

Very true. Very true. All right. Well, Ian, once again, thank you so much for joining us. This is fantastic.

Like always, do you want to tell our lovely listeners where they can find you?

You can [01:11:00] find me on all social media platforms at IanXCarlos and if you want to follow my podcast, SlayerFest98, we are at SlayerFestX98 on all social media platforms and we are on YouTube and Spotify and Apple Podcasts and everywhere

Excellent.

Patreon,

Oh yeah, and I have a Patreon, which we're going to be, we're going through X Men the Animated Series, which I plan to have Charlie and Steve on for

and Batman the Animated Series too.

Very

very cool. Well, as always, thank you for joining us and a goodbye from myself and my good friend, Steve Selnick. Thanks for joining us. Bye bye.

Bye, everyone.