Moonlight
[00:00:00] Hi, friends. Welcome to Charlie and Steve watch stuff for today. We are watching moonlight My name is Steve Selnick and joining me as always. He just got done whipping up the chef special. It's my good friend Charlie peppers
I'm so happy to be talking about this damn film before I forget a really fun fact from Barry Jenkins, the director of this film. Whenever someone is feeding Chiron, the main character, it's to show a shift in the relationship because giving someone food is akin to showing them affection and intimacy.
So, in the final chapter, when we show I'm not gonna ruin it by saying that character's name. When we show that character preparing a meal for him, the director very intentionally showed the steps of him putting tenderness and care into each step of it because it was just, you know, him really wanting to be tender and gentle with them.
So I, yeah, I found that interesting.
Oh [00:01:00] incredible. I didn't even think about that. That's amazing Thanks for sharing that and you know I think that is a perfect jumping off point for the place. I want to start in this podcast we're coming in with Hot Take Central right now. And Charlie, this is the first time I've watched this movie. And I, I'm going to show my hand a little bit for what our ratings are going to be at the end of the episode today. But my question for you why are people who think that La La Land is better than Moonlight wrong? Why are they so wrong it hurts inside? Because this movie was so good, and it made La La Land look like shit.
It made it look like spaghetti art, or macaroni art. You know what? It's insane.
It's insane.
different pieces of this. Because, I'm not gonna lie, I watched The La La Land, and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it because I enjoy musicals, and I enjoy Ryan Gosling, I enjoy Emma Stone, and I enjoy the gentleman who directed it.
[00:02:00] I also really loved Whiplash, which he also directed. So, it's a great piece of art. I'm gonna speak about it from a cultural perspective, and I'm gonna speak about it from a purely technical, cinematic standpoint. I think that Technically, La La Land is a feat. The musical numbers, particularly them stuck in traffic and them coming out and dancing on their cars, them at the observatorium, the sheer joy that oozes out of that movie and it's love for the form of musicals is very dear to my heart.
But at the same time, culturally, I think it was very tone deaf to not only have a movie about the movie industry, and something that is just so white overshadow a movie like Moonlight. I think that [00:03:00] that was very tone deaf given the socio economics of the country and the fact that movies like Moonlight, particularly at the level that Moonlight was being produced and made, it's such a rare gem to then throw La La Land in the same sentence just makes you go, like, what?
They both. Are great films, but what, what one of them is saying, I think is more tapped into the world than what the other one is saying, which has been said many, many times, which is that we love watching pretty white people in musicals, dancing and falling in love with each other, played by movie stars like Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone.
While I still love those actors and I love that movie. It's well made, but the love that I have for La La Land does not compare to the love that I have for Moonlight. What are your thoughts, Steve?
I think that Moonlight wrote circles around La [00:04:00] La Land, and it's not even close. I think everyone in Moonlight acted circles around everyone in La La Land, even though both of those things are like, extremely good. It like, yes, I, I hear you on the, the joy and the production value, and they shut down an entire section of the freeway in Los Angeles, which is basically stopping half of the world.
If you would talk to anybody in Los Angeles to make that movie all really, really huge feats. But yeah, I mean, this one just grabbed me and didn't let me go for almost two hours, which I wholly appreciate. And it it's important for. Cultural representation to, for you, for people that identify as the same way as you and look the way that you do.
And it's also important cultural representation for people that look and identify the way that I do because they need to. See and hear these stories and take them in and think about them for days afterwards and hopefully be changed a little bit by it for the better. And that's, that's the mark of good art more than anything else to me.
[00:05:00] So and it's, it, it really was a sort of a, a David and Goliath sort of a battle. And I think that's how it was being referenced back in the day. This movie's budget was 1. 5 million. It was released and distributed by 824. It, when it was released, it was the second lowest grossing film domestically behind the Hurt Locker to win the Oscar for best picture. So this is like a small movie that managed to get over the hump and take home a couple of those awards. And so we're here to talk about and celebrate Moonlight during this. This pride month celebration that we're doing this month, Charlie, anything else you want to cover about just the overall moonlight picture before we dive into the film itself?
The smug glee that I had in my heart when La La Land was announced as Best Picture, then they were like, Oh, actually, Moonlight, you won Best Picture. Moonlight, you won. There's been a mistake. Ooh. Ooh.[00:06:00]
Oh shit. I forgot that that was that Oscars. Oh my God. Oh,
wow. Yeah, It was the envelope one, right?
I was just like.
Oop! Hahahaha!
to call back. That's the moment where Jean
Grey's go in and
watch this, watch this!
No, no, no, no. Watch
this.
could've caught Rogue from dropping him, but I didn't.
Hell yeah. We're going to talk about Moonlight today, released on October 21st, 2016. This was directed and written by Barry Jenkins and explores a coming of age story of a boy, Chiron in his childhood, adolescence, and early adult life. It explores the difficulties he faces with his sexuality and identity, including the physical and emotional abuse that he endures growing up. Now, before we talk about the main character itself. We're going to start with the opening of the movie and the setting that we're dropped into, which is Liberty city, Miami, a section of Miami at the height of the crack [00:07:00] epidemic. And the first person that we actually see is Juan who's played by Mahershala Ali. He took home an Oscar for best supporting actor for this role, which. Just a hundred percent deserved. I was actually surprised at how little he was in the film for him taking home that award. I thought I was going to see him a little bit more, but we can get to that later. And he rolls up with the song. Every N word is a star by Boris Gardner playing on the radio. And you kind of get put into the time with his car, his ride, the music, the area around him. And so, Charlie, I know you wanted to talk about this sort of scene setting with the use of music and sort of the, the string that the music plays throughout this film, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you jump in here and talk about it.
Yeah, Steve I kind of before I get into that I almost want to throw it back to you for a second because you Made me aware that this was sampled in a Kendrick Lamar song, right?
Oh, right. Yes, we did talk about that. It's sampled in the [00:08:00] beginning of his album, To Pimp a Butterfly. It's how the album actually starts. It's just that line of the song. Every Edward is a star said over, like, looped over and over again until it goes into his first song of the album. And To Pimp a Butterfly is, I mean, that was his whole, like, racial justice, racial reckoning album, where he did songs like I and
Alright and stuff like
100%, 110%. I love that song as an opening for this film because this film is really a character study on black masculinity in the United States of America. Within this particular juncture of time during the crack epidemic. Which. I find to be a very interesting point for this film to start off at, because Crack shattered many communities, it shattered many families, it is a crippling addiction to have, you know, both mentally, spiritually, [00:09:00] financially, you know, and the ripple effect of it is still being felt generations from now, you know, it definitely deepens an intergenerational trauma that's already inherent in the black community. So I really, , I like that needle drop. I thought it was really smart.
Agree. And then it cuts immediately to Chiron running away from some bullies, going by the nickname Little, hiding from them in an empty crack house that he's able to open up and lock and spend some time in, to your point that you said in the beginning of the podcast, Juan is the first person to feed Chiron, so he's able to extend that care, show that care through getting him some food at the diner.
He can't quite break through to him right away. He decides to bring him back to his house, introduces him to his girlfriend, Teresa, who, I was like, this woman looks so familiar. Who is
this? And I'm like, Oh, it's Janelle Monae. It's just Janelle Monae coming from the top roads, doing their thing. they let him spend the night. he he gets a good night's sleep on a real bed. [00:10:00] Juan brings him back to the house. His mother, Paula, is upset that he didn't come back. Seems like a hard working nurse who just doesn't have the time for her son. Also, don't know if you connected this bridge, She's the woman in Pirates of the Caribbean.
That's like the witch woman in the second and third movies. That's the woman who plays the, the, Chiron's mom in
the, in that movie.
where you know her from. All right, so
I was like, this is who this is!
with you because we're coming from two different places culturally. That actress is an absolute. Have you ever seen Set It Off?
Oh, it's been a minute
since I've seen Set It Off, for
the basic plot of Set It Off?
Is it a, is it
a dance movie?
No, no, that's not
that's not Step
is a black female bank heist, bank robbery movie.
Oh shit. Then I haven't seen set
it off. That's that I'm immediately in
set it off at a certain point, this actress, I really want her to start getting more of her [00:11:00] flowers, because she plays one of the female bank robbers, and I would say that she's the heart of that movie.
And that movie has some heavy hitters. Queen Latifah's in it, Jada Pinkett Smith is in it,
Kimberly Elise is in it, and,
let's go.
Who else? Is it Vivica A. Fox? Is in it as well. And they, it's a very
my
God.
what I would call, like, black movie. Like, everybody, everybody in the black movie knows Set It Off.
Like, especially if you hear the song, What's it gonna be? From En Vogue. It's like such a staple of the black
community. But, yes and, Pirates of the Caribbean is also fuckin fire. My problems with Johnny Depp aside, because it's not just Amber Heard. Who is very questionable and did some fuck shit.
It's also Johnny Depp who did some fuck shit, I digress
Yeah. I thought [00:12:00] you were going to say that pirates of the Caribbean is a staple in the white community and I wasn't going to argue with you.
Pirates of the caribbean is the white people set it off
I mean, there might be
more parallels there than we think. Anyhow.
go ahead Yeah,
not no not no after Juan is able to find Chiron's way back home and get him back to his mother, they continue to spend time together And you see this, you know, this fatherly bond formed between them. Ironically, we're recording this on Father's Day when we're talking about the fact that this is the person that Chiron was able to find a father figure in. And the one scene I want to park on right here is the, the, scene where Juan takes Chiron to the ocean and teaches him how to swim. I, I think that this was just a, a, it's something that never would have happened to him. If they hadn't met each other, he never would have had this opportunity to do this thing that we never see him do again, but at least he got to [00:13:00] have a moment where he got to be a kid.
I think something that we see more and more often throughout the beginning of this movie is how much of a childhood Little didn't get to have. And this is one of the few moments where he actually did seem to get one, or that scene where they, they take a little bit longer of showing him comfortable in a bed, like, you, you quickly understand that this is not normal life for him to be comfortable, to be held, to be seen, to be, I think it also pushes back on stereotypes. Like a common stupid joke that you hear is that black people can't swim. And it's just like, no, they can, they're, they're, they're just, And they go out to the ocean and they learn how to swim just like everybody else. And so I, I think this was a really important scene to set up that relationship and sort of the, the trajectory that Lidl is about to go on.
What do you think about that?
is a great scene I think, well, actually I'm going to work my way backwards. I'll come back to the scene. Cause you said something else that I thought was really interesting. I like the scene [00:14:00] of Mahershala Ali's character finding little in the crack house, and I liked that he was the person to let the light in to that dark space, because that's what he did
with their relationship. poured light into Little's world because he's the first person to see Little and to make Little feel like he could take up space and I like the name Little for him as a nickname because it's both endearing and it's also infantilizing and suggesting that for him to be anything other than small would be criminal and would make people wildly uncomfortable.
So I really, I love that moment of the film. I love the way it's shot. I also felt very terrified for him watching those boys chase him like that and
It made me, this movie made me tear up and almost cry a couple of times because it made me reflect on my [00:15:00] childhood. I have an interesting relationship with being bullied.
I've never been bullied to the extent of getting physically hit or something happening to me because I think And I don't know why, maybe that was just the way things worked out, or maybe I, the story that I tell myself is that I had enough wherewithal to know who to avoid and who to move away from, because I was also queer, in addition to being little and being smaller of stature, but I've never been chased by that many boys, you know at least not in a violent
context. Haha, da dum dum tsh. It's so harrowing to see the opening of the movie show that character going through that, you know, especially with who he turns out to be. And then moving on to the scene where he's in the house with our girl, Janelle Monae, and This made me fall in love with her as an actress [00:16:00] all over again because of how she interacts with the child actor.
You could just see her fully present and fully in the scene, both of them. That's why I love adult actors acting with kids. You know, because it didn't I didn't see anyone
in that scene acting. They literally I could tell in their faces, they were just curious about what this kid was going to do with his performance, that scene, that dinner scene with him is probably one of my favorite scenes in the movie. Steve, what did you think about it?
man, I, I mean, it was put it in line with all the other wonderful things that this film did. The, the way that they left space for him to talk whenever he felt like it and to just make sure he was fed and safe and all the other stuff. I, again, I just think it, it shows a care that he just, I think had never received in his life and it's almost, we're getting used to it as much as he's getting used to it on the screen.
If that makes sense.
Yeah, it makes total sense. It makes total, total sense. Speaking of [00:17:00] care, when we do go to his mom, I love that we aren't revealed to her disease first. I love that we're exposed to what I believe is her true self. And her true self is a mom who cares for her son This was a very
I agree.
Right? A testament to the writing.
She does it is always
clear to me that she loves her son Like it's always clear, but it's suppressed and other dark shit gets in the way The fact that she's well put together She's dressed. She is her hair and her makeup are tight and she says oh, no, no TV privileges are evoked. Go read a book. You can't do this.
You gotta let me know where you are. You know, but also, yes and or, the fact that she wasn't more panicked also says a lot. My mom would have been a fucking wreck. My mom would have murdered [00:18:00] me if I showed up the next day and she didn't know where I was. So, in hindsight, this scene is really
interesting.
Steve, what would your mom have done to you if you, at that age, just showed up the next day like, Oh, hi.
At that age,
the whole state would have
been activated. Yeah, I mean, again, we're talking about cultural differences. You're talking about a missing white kid in suburban Connecticut. It's a different experience. Yeah. But like, but not to like, negate any other experience of someone that doesn't have those sort of like, Resources or cultural energy behind them to be found like the experience of the mother in that situation should usually be very similar.
I think if you go back and think about it, it probably means that she spent the night fucked up and woke up and
realized that her son wasn't
Right.
And she's probably still, you do see her deterioration, like her physical deterioration throughout the film. So I think maybe at this point she's, I think she was wearing scrubs.
So it seemed like she was [00:19:00] coming back from work wherever she was working. And so maybe she was still holding a job at that point. At some point, we see that she doesn't have a job anymore. And so, I, I think it's a balance of, I think she's in the early stage of her drug use, where you still get to see some of that real self come through, and then it deteriorates from there.
But yeah, I agree with you. I think it was, and it makes the reveal. Later on as we get to the end of the the little
section all the more heartbreaking when we see that it's her in the car But we'll get to that section soon was there anything else you wanted to say
about what we were talking about before we move
on to the the
first scene with Kevin
seen in the ocean. That was beautiful just because of black people's experience in the ocean particularly with slave ships and a lot of people drowning in slave ships or jumping off because they'd rather die and a lot of pregnant women Jumping off slave ships so you have people who weren't born But I I like to I always think that [00:20:00] Black people particularly have a very interesting relationship with the water, myself included, because I like to say I know how to swim.
I've taken swimming classes, but I don't care to because the water freaks me out.
And something deep that I've always suspected is I think I might have drowned in a past life, and that's why water's always flipped me out. Like. I have such a weird fear of the water that when I went to Puerto Vallarta last month, I took strides in breaking because I went into the ocean off of a boat for the very first time.
So that was, part of me taking back my power.
Yeah, I'm gonna get over it. It just takes more exposure. I think also being around the ocean more.
Yeah. For sure. just building on what you said, a yes and to that is what, you know, the, the freedom that's represented in them just floating in the ocean, learning how to [00:21:00] swim, having the space to. Be people and do that sort of thing and, and the beauty that that represents. I, it's a top moment in the film for sure, without a doubt.
Yeah, yeah.
So we get somewhere before the close of this first act, we also get a scene of Chiron and his best friend, Kevin walking together in a field. And I think the bullies are somewhere around and Kevin essentially is like looking at a cut on Chiron's face and being like, you need to show these guys that you aren't soft. And he's like, I'm not soft. I'm tough. And they have a little wrestling match. And I actually, I watched this with Erin. And I kind of leaned over to her. And I was like, I can't wait until we get the sex scene with them like this. And I wasn't 100 percent wrong. I wasn't 100 percent wrong. We'll get to it. But it was a very like, Beautiful representation of boy friendship. And then at this point, you also know that this is him, like, having feelings for another boy in one way, and like, the one boy who seems [00:22:00] to also treat him like a person, not like he's any other lesser version of the other people that torment his life. And then at the end of their wrestling match, which I also think, this is just a very, so many just real representations of humanity, they stop wrestling, he goes, Yeah, I knew you weren't soft. And then they start walking away together, and all of a sudden one of them starts sprinting, and the other one sprints after him.
I thought that was perfect. Just, just perfect capturing of life.
I agree, I agree. I mean, I remember a moment that I had like that as a kid. Actually two moments I had like that. One's in elementary school and one in middle school. And both were kind of me waking up to my identity a little bit more. So those scenes felt really, really specific to me, but also real.
Moving on in this first act, we get one fateful night, where Chiron comes home to his mother. Hanging in his kitchen with a mysterious man, she tells him to make himself scarce and they [00:23:00] disappear. Later on in that evening, Juan encounters someone smoking up on their selling turf, which is strictly against the rules, and he's pissed at his corner guy for letting it happen. And as he walks up to the car to tell them to skedaddle out of there, it turns out to be His mom smoking the crack with that man in the driver's seat. And Juan berates her for being addicted to crack and for neglecting his son. But she rebukes him being like, you're going to sell it to me. And he's not arguing with that.
He's going to sell it to her because he's about making that money. She also implies that she can tell that her son is gay and she knows why he's getting tormented by all of his peers. And they argue over who's going to. Kind of like be the one bringing him up where it where she's like, yeah You might be acting like his father, but I'm his flesh and blood like I'm his mom and that's that's always gonna be a thing before she goes home and you get this super haunting scene of her just Screaming at Chiron so it's, I [00:24:00] mean, that's a traumatic moment in, in this little kid's life and a heartbreaking moment in the film in general, that you kind of see how all of these threads are connected in that one moment where you didn't necessarily see them all connecting until right then. You just thought it was people that just happened to run into each
other.
sure, for sure, I think that scene where she says, oh, you gonna raise my son? I think that they are both right about something, but one thing, I'm gonna say this before I lose the thought. Although she is clued into the fact that she has a gay, queer, however you wanna label him, son.
And her saying that that's why he's getting picked on. I don't think that that's necessarily true. At least that's not my interpretation of it. I think that he is getting picked on because he doesn't talk. And because he doesn't
Hmm. Mm
And that, because if you really break down the word queer, it means [00:25:00] different.
So him acting in a way that could make him pass as just a mute, or somebody who might be a little bit. Intellectually Different than other people. I think that that is more them just not being able to Really get a read on what his deal is but we know that in the 80s and 90s if you couldn't get a read on somebody or if it was Weird, it just got labeled gay So I think that that
hmm.
At least that, that's my, that's my creative intellectual breakdown of how he got put into that box.
I don't think that the kids are thinking of him that deeply. I think that his mom sees him because that's his mom. But the way that she goes into, oh and that's why kids pick on him, I think that's a very, that's just showing her fucking homophobia and all of. Her [00:26:00] imperialistic, yeah,
referencing how he walks,
like, whatever, let him walk however he wants to walk, I think it's just, he's also not holding his head high, you know, he, he isn't proud of himself because you aren't emotionally present, I found that moment very, very interesting.
When I would spend time with my male cousins, when we were around Chiron's age, we would walk around in our aunt's heels.
Just for fun, and she would watch us, and she'd be like, Oh, that's so funny, haha, no, you walk around in them. Because we were five and six years old. Was there ever a moment where you did that as a kid? That you can remember? Just to be silly?
you know, no, no, honestly, I I don't even think there was any like I didn't I wouldn't have not thought about it I just never I'm trying to think I don't think my mom really like had heels now that I'm thinking about it I'm trying to think of my mom ever being in heels [00:27:00] or any of my aunts for that matter I like
can't think of one time Maybe so maybe that's more of a family issue than didn't
have the materials But no like I it's so funny all that that stuff happened more for me in college because I went to a place like Emerson where that was like let's go to the garment district
and try on as much weird shit as possible and One of one of the favorite pieces of clothing I ever put on was my my buddy Matt skirt It was great.
So that was more of a college age thing for me than a
five year old thing for
own three or four skirts now that are just
hanging in my closet that are like for different aesthetic purposes. But yeah, skirts are hot, particularly on dudes because you know what's
Skirts are hot.
It's fun. But I digress.
Well, this is, this is where we have same same but different of an opinion, if
you get
ha ha ha ha.
but diff, but diff, but
different results. But I agree with
you
too, just.
Yeah.
way.
I love [00:28:00] it. So, to lock back into seriousness, the next day Chiron is having dinner with Juan and Teresa over at Teresa's house, and he admits that he hates his mother. And he asks them both what an F slur is. And if you're listening to this podcast enough, you know that we don't mean fuck. We say fuck. And, and Juan tells him that it is a word used to make gay people feel bad, which I think is actually a very succinct way of putting it to a child who is hearing it thrown his way over and over again. And he also tells him that there's nothing wrong with it. wrong with being gay and that he shouldn't allow others to mock him and there was that funny little moment where he was trying to be helpful and being like, is it bad that I'm this word? Or is it, is basically he was asking if there's any virtue in being called the word and he was almost like, unless you want there to be, and then Janelle's like, no, no, no, no.
Don't, don't, it was a good try, but don't, just stick with the no. And we both, we both giggled at that, which I just think, again, it's just such a real
[00:29:00] moment of somebody trying their best and it's okay if you slip a tiny bit and it's really great that he asked Teresa to get him back on the track, but like, again, what a beautiful father moment from someone who didn't think he
was going to be a father to a child now feels this immense responsibility to him now that you have all this context for who he is and just like what a way to step up. I just think
it's, it was Such a good way
step up.
Yes, and to that scene. I like that again this movie
deviates from expectations that you would have about black men. This is a black man, yes, but he's from Cuba. He's a drug dealer, but he can also be tremendously gentle and generous and attentive and giving. He does care about this kid, and I love that you have a drug dealer who doesn't think that being gay is a bad thing.
Thank you. During the crack epidemic, I have never seen that in a movie. I thought that was so groundbreaking. I'm [00:30:00] almost a little jealous because I wish that I would have had a man in my life who, when I was that age, who might have seen me and said, there's nothing wrong with you being who you are and walking your truth.
That would have been. game changing, though I wouldn't change anything because I am the person that I am because of what happened, but that would have been really nice. That would have been really, really nice.
And it's so funny to hear somebody talk about the F slur as something to make gay people feel bad because I feel about the F slur the same way that I feel about the N word.
Which is that they're both my words. And if I am in the company of people in those communities, They can fly free, but don't get caught outside the community. Saying it because then we're gonna have a fucking problem. But yeah, that was that was a great scene.
Everybody write that down. Everybody. I don't care who you are. Just
write it down. You need [00:31:00] it. Wisdom from Charlie. That's, that one's for free. Before we close, and this is literally the last scene that we get before we move into the second act. At that table, after they have that discussion about the Efteler that was being used his way, he asked Juan if he does sell drugs and whether or not his mother did. And Juan remorsefully answers yes to both questions. Chiron just silently gets up and leaves, and we get this slow fade out as Wan hangs his head and slowly breaks down in shame. Which was, I mean, talk about watching truth watch over a person, and how they deal with it. I think probably these, like, 15 seconds maybe won him the Oscar alone, although the performance itself was brilliant from start to finish. And the only complaint that I have is that this is the last time that we
see him for the rest of the movie.
he fucking lives in Chiron.
That's, yes.
Yes, I mean, he basically
becomes
some alterations because I, I [00:32:00] think that he acts
harder just because of being gay, he feels like he has to put it on a little bit extra. There's a scene on the couch in his apartment that I really can't wait to talk about because
You just made me
think about that when you said
On the edge of my seat like oh shit This guy's a shark.
But seeing him do a version of mentorship For somebody else in that moment With a harder edge later on. We'll get to it, we'll get to it. let's move on.
So now we are in chapter 2, baby. We open up on a teenage version of Chiron. He is balancing avoiding a school bully, , and spending time with Theresa, who has lived alone since Juan's death. Paula, who has turned to prostitution due to her worsening addiction, forces Chiron to give her the money he receives from Teresa.
Let's stop and double click on this for a second. When she ran up to Chiron before she [00:33:00] revealed That she had been locked out of their apartment. I believed it was pure and she was just like, oh, hey, what's up? You know, but then the suspicion on his face And then the reveal that she needed to get inside the house to find money so that she can buy herself drugs Because she's prostituting herself out to support this addiction was a gut punch, She's so good.
She's so good. I really want her to win an Oscar. Angela Bassett deserved that Oscar and she got it. Also, I really want her to get this Oscar because she's just, she's been killing it for as long as I've been alive. amazing.
nomination for this movie, just not the W.
See, I don't remember that because I wasn't up on nominations as much as I am now back then.
Oh, I
only know because I looked it up yesterday. So
How do you feel about the fact that they never explained what happened to
I don't think we need to. he died.
he died?
It's sad,
And it's sad. [00:34:00]
it could be a drive by, it could be an aneurysm. You know, it could be, he fell in the shower, and hit his head. Awkward, you know, I like that it's not there, but
the loss is felt. You know. Shyron feels a lot more lonely, like his loneliness feels more heartbreaking now because I think that he, as a teenager, is just a raw er version of himself.
Yeah, I mean, he has You think of all that guidance he could have been getting right now. Especially as we go through the events that we're about to
sort of roll through.
this bully, let's talk about this bully for a second. I, at first when I was watching this, I think that this bully is getting his ass beat at home. And is coming to school and taking it
out on everybody. And
him into the crack house in the beginning.
just keeps victimizing him for that many years? That's wild.
It's kinda how it goes, I mean Once a bully, always a bully, until you can finally get away from them. The same [00:35:00] people that are thorns in people's sides in elementary school are definitely going to be the same people that are thorns in your side
in high school.
I never experienced having the same people go from Elementary to middle school to high school with me because I did go into a city and you had to audition for those certain schools or Pass a test or win a lottery for some of them. That's how it worked in new york city
in the late 90s Yeah,
natural separation.
was rare. I felt excited if somebody followed me. It's like, oh, I know somebody here, but Cody my boyfriend. He said that he stayed with some people from like K all the way up to 12. That would have been a nightmare.
Yeah, I moved when I was eight, but yeah, some people I literally third grade to graduating high
No, I don't want it. This isn't what I ordered. Send it back to the kitchen. Chiron's childhood friend Kevin tells him about a detention he received for being caught having sex with a girl in a school stairwell. [00:36:00] Chiron later dreams about Kevin and the girl having sex in Teresa's backyard. Waking with the start.
Yes. he might be embellishing, but I think it's a version of the truth.
Alright. I,
agree that he was embellishing, I don't know if he was I think maybe just trying to like, appear more, this could be an incorrect assumption, but because I think some version of Kevin is closeted as well. He's trying to up up his masculinity to someone that I think he also has feelings for because He doesn't know about that person and it's very honestly if we're gonna talk about I can't believe I'm gonna reference X Men 97 right now, but it's a little
bit like that bar conversation In the finale of X Men 97, where they're talking about being mutants, where it's like, they're testing the waters a little bit, maybe they're not, they're still got their walls up.
So I just, him talking about it so enthusiastically and so detailed made it made me think like, Oh, this dude's totally
lying. He's just trying to like
show off for someone that he actually [00:37:00] likes.
I don't know if he's aware that he's doing this because he is young, but I think on a subconscious level, he's also trying to turn him on and put a very sexual thought about him in his head. Because whenever you're very explicit
about something you've done and you kind of push it into somebody's head, they're going to start thinking of you as a sexual creature, you know, and it wasn't.
Until then, that he then had that dream about that. So I think Whether or not he was aware of it, that was his intention of like, I want you to see me this way Because I'm curious about you
Mm hmm.
I love it.
I also love how beautifully this next scene was shot One night, Kevin visits Chiron at the beach near his house. While smoking a blunt together, the two discuss their ambitions and the nickname Kevin gave Chiron when they were children. They kiss, and Kevin gives Chiron a handjob. I like this sex scene, and I talk about this a lot as it pertains to writing.
I don't like sex [00:38:00] scenes that are gratuitous and just there to be there. I think They're obnoxious, and I think that they put the actors in a very strange position with each other. I'm glad that intimacy coordinators are a thing on sets right now, because sex scenes in movies shouldn't feel like sex work.
Those are two very different things, and I think that sex work is very legitimate. And Like work is literally in the name of it So you are that is your trade and it's legitimate and you're not less of a person for doing that but when you are an actor playing a role, I think that there should be boundaries of what you are expected to do in front of an entire set of people and I applaud this film
because i'll start with the writing The sex came after the intimacy.
They had a very, I think that this is the most deep conversation, the most open that Chiron is [00:39:00] for the rest of the movie. Him saying, sometimes I cry so much I think I'm gonna start turning into drops. And I love that gonna say his boyfriend looks at him and takes that in and doesn't make fun of him and just, Appreciates him
even more because that's intimacy and vulnerability.
I thought that was very, very beautiful and very sweet. And if a guy that I had a crush on told me that, I would just be like come here. Which he does. And, Then when they made out, It felt earned. And I was invested in their connection. And then, Just from a stylistic standpoint, when he was getting a handjob, I love the shots of just his hands in the sand with the grains and also the back of his head being
it was beautiful.
just showing that it was a very intimate moment and that he wasn't being used, they were being connected, they were connecting with each other.
The only thing I want to back up a little bit farther is just the conversation they have about the breeze and how it makes them feel. Free and all of that stuff. Although [00:40:00] my only, my only slight nitpick is how the hell did he find him? It, it, it was a little convenient that he just suddenly found him on the beach because right before that he was riding the train for hours until it closed.
So it theoretically was like past midnight and he just. Fountain on the beach, but
we don't have to think about that too hard because everything else that happened afterwards was like It almost made me think he was having it in his like he was having the
conversation in his brain for a second until I He pulled out the blunt and they started smoking it and I was like, oh no, this is real But after I got back
into it, it was really great.
For sure, for sure. I thought that was really fun. Just, also maybe, maybe he was stalking him? And just
I mean, maybe
conveniently was like, Oh, hi, I
didn't know you'd be here.
What are
you doing here?
The next morning, Tyrell manipulates Kevin into participating in a hazing ritual. Kevin reluctantly punches Chiron until he cannot [00:41:00] stand watching his Terrell in the other boys' savagely attack him. When the principal urges him to reveal his attacker's identity, Chiron refuses saying that the reporting that reporting them will not solve anything.
Working backwards from this, the shot of him just sticking his face inside of ice, water, in the sink was so powerful because whenever he's alone or whenever he's near water, he is experiencing an emotional transition. The scene with Juan where Juan was just holding him in the ocean. was showing that this was gonna be a paternal figure for him and somebody who meant a lot to him and was seeing him for the first time.
Him taking a bath while he was alone at home. One, he's a total latchkey kid, which I thought, wow, I don't know if a kid in this day and age would be left [00:42:00] home to that extent to just fend for themselves just with helicopter parenting or whatever, but him taking the water and getting the bubbles and giving himself a bath just shows that he really is fending for himself.
But the transformation,
The, the dish
soap in the tub.
I remember that Mr. Bubbles,
Mr. Bubbles, Bubba. Mm hmm. So that, that was great. But then, Can we just talk about this moment of Kevin hitting him? Did that break your fucking heart like it broke mine?
it's the bad kind of watching a train wreck in slow motion that you know you can't stop, where like, you see him essentially be like, this is a sink or swim moment for me, I'm either gonna keep my social standing, or I'm going to start becoming bullied like Chiron is, and it's gonna hurt. And so, I have to decide what's going to hurt less, and he decided in that moment that [00:43:00] losing his boyfriend is gonna hurt less. Which, arguable, but that's the choice that he made.
Yeah, arguable. That's very legit. That's very real. That was the least painful decision for him to make. I mean You could see in his face where he said don't get back up, But then for them to after that just like start kicking him was so Geez, oh man, but I want to hurry up and get to this next scene just because I want to talk about it The next day, an enraged Chiron walks into class and smashes a chair over Tyrell's head before being restrained by classmates and a teacher.
Chiron is arrested and leaves the school in a police cruiser while Kevin watches. Yeah, that dude deserved that beating. He deserved it. He deserved
it.
Yep.
He had it
had it coming.
Had it coming. Yeah, it's funny as he was, as we were on that tracking shot of watching Chiron walk into the school and stuff like that, I know it's inappropriate to be thinking of an Eminem song in a movie like this, but that, [00:44:00] that's the song The Way I Am where the line specifically when a dude's getting bullied and shoots up his school, it was very much giving that vibe. Of like, this is, this is someone who clearly has been broken by what has happened, and it was certainly the final straw to have someone that he just had this beautiful humanizing moment with then turn around and physically abuse him and assault him. yeah, I wasn't necessarily expecting him to like, Pick up the chair and go full WWE on him.
And even after he hits him with the first one where he takes a different piece of it and just starts smacking him with it, like that's, that's
Pure blind rage,
Like, let's let's go through a laundry list of everything this kid's been through. We don't know what happened with his father, because in the beginning of the movie, when his dad brought up got brought up, he didn't say shit.
So I bet that his dad was severely homophobic, and just a terrible person, and talked shit to the mom about him. Chased by kids, and had to hide in a crack house. Watches his mom succumb to crack [00:45:00] addiction. has a father figure in Juan, but Juan dies, we don't know how, has this connection with Kevin while he's figuring himself out, then Kevin punches him, which sends the message that he's being punished for having a moment of intimacy with another boy, so that's a mindfuck.
And I think that's also why he didn't
let anybody else touch him after that. Because of the messaging that that sends. Oh, I'm gonna give you pleasure and I'm gonna kiss you and hold space for you. Then I'm gonna beat the shit out of you. I don't know how I would have functioned after something like that.
Right.
yeah.
And so we see, we sort of see some of the results of that going into. The third act of the film, titled Black, where a year and a decade later, 11 years for those of you that are bad at counting, now going by the nickname Black, an adult Chiron deals drugs in Atlanta. And just to pause right here, he just becomes a spitting image of Juan in a lot of [00:46:00] ways here, where he's, he's jacked. He works out really hard and he's super muscular. He wears a lot of the same clothing that Sharon does. Does he have, he has grills too. So he, he even starts wearing grills like Juan did. And he, as you can see, is in the trapping game as they call it, the drug dealing game now, just in the Atlanta area of Georgia, rather than.
That area of Miami, he's receiving frequent calls from his mother, Paula, who wants him to visit her at a drug treatment center where she is living. So I guess something that he did with all that money was get his mom into some help maybe. And one morning Kevin of all people calls him and invites him to come and see him.
Should he ever find himself in Miami again? Now, Charlie, what did you think of this phone call in the way that Chiron Black, whatever you want to call him, reacted
he felt total chills because I think that he has thought about this dude so much Throughout the last 11 years. [00:47:00] So, Particularly because this is the only man that he's let get that close to him So he has it. It's kind of like a first love the way that a first love would have you in a choke hold, you know
I do know. I also know that the last thing that they did was punch the other person in the face. is this just like a time has passed and I'm only gonna remember the fondness? Because they never talk about it.
Really?
for it and I think he also gets it As fucked up as it was, he gets why he had to do that.
Okay.
up In this moment of stinging defiance while he was told to stay down was just him showing You're doing what you have to do and i'm doing what I have to do right now so I
Ooh, I like
that. Good call.
and I think that he wasn't pissed at him per se For being forced to but it still crossed wires with a lot of his internalized homophobia and shame I think in his head he was listening to [00:48:00] I think juan was in him in that scene when he was getting punched because juan said It's fine being gay, but you don't ever have to let anybody treat you like an f slur So I think that's what was playing in his head.
It's like, all right You're not gonna treat me like something you can just walk all over. Which was very real.
I totally agree. So before we get to sort of Chiron's two final trips of, I don't know if closure, healing are the right words, but I think we get some semblance of both of those words throughout some of the ending of this movie, but I, I, I want to talk about another parallel that he holds here with Juan. Which is when he's counting money with one of his corner dealers as someone who's in the Juan role now and sort of how he fucks with him a little bit and then turns it around to be like, Hey, you can't, you can't be on the corner if you're going to just freak out if a random person starts messing with you, which was his own backwards way of giving this kid a life lesson and taking a little bit of a [00:49:00] mentorship role with him.
Just watching it, I was like, Damn, that's intimidating. Also, I kind of want to have sex with him now.
Yeah, it was like
a bit of both. a bit of both. govna.
But yeah, that, that was a very interesting scene. Though, I don't know if Juan would have gone quite as hard with that lesson.
Juan seemed a bit smoother to me.
Maybe. It's good to I think it's because he was dealing with a kid. I don't think we ever saw him We didn't see him have to deal with his corner guy in a negative way. His corner guy always seemed to be on point, and so he never had to have an issue. But you saw him activate when he was going to deal with
Paula and the other guy in the car I think he had it in
him. I think he understood because he's, he's essentially telling this kid to be tough, which is essentially what Juan told him to do. He did it softer because he was
dealing with a child versus an adult,
Yeah.
but I, you know, I get it. We go for visit one of two before Chiron goes and visits Kevin, which you can clearly tell he's going to go and do [00:50:00] after this phone call happens and that Kevin wants him to do because he, like, this is still the time where it's hard to find somebody's phone number, you have to like jump through hoops to find somebody's phone number or get in touch with them.
You can't just find them on Instagram and DM them at this period of time. And so before he goes down to Miami, He goes to see his mother at the drug rehab facility, drug treatment center where she's residing. And Chiron finally breaks a silence about what life was like for him and what it was like growing up in that house with him.
And it's, it's that moment where we see that she screams at him, don't look at me. Back in the flashback to his childhood when she came home from that first interaction between her and Juan. And and, and his mother takes the opportunity to apologize for not loving him when he needed it the most and that she loves him now even if he doesn't love her back and they're able to tear, tearfully reconcile before Paula lets Chiron go and, and lets him know that he, she's going to be living there for a while and, and trying to give back to the place [00:51:00] that helped get her life back on track. So you sort of get a, I moment of healing and a moment of resolution between him and his mother whether or not it's like a A huge sweeping one is up in the air, but I think just the fact that that conversation can happen now is a huge step
Yeah, the fact that she has the wherewithal to have that conversation. And I love that he sits back down when she wants to continue the conversation. He could have just walked away and, again, Juan is alive because he said, hated his mom. While she was alive, but now that she's dead, he misses the hell out of her.
So that's something that he probably kept with him and carried for years and years.
True. And you know, that's also what another testament to Mahershala's performance there is that you, you feel his characteristic with you for the rest of that movie too, along with
Chiron, which I think is
really special. So Chiron travels to Miami and visits Kevin at his workplace. He's working as a cook at a diner. He cooks him dinner. They, they hug, they catch [00:52:00] up. They, they share plastic cup wine, which was really cute. And Kevin's trying to probe Chiron about his life and he's not really getting much in return. So Kevin decides to tell him that he's had a child with an ex girlfriend of his, and although the relationship's over, he's fulfilled as being a father. And then Chiron reciprocates by talking about how he eventually found a path into drug dealing through his time in Juvie and all of the systems and stuff like that. And he asks Kevin why he called. This is another amazing needle drop moment where Kevin walks open to the jukebox and he plays Hello Stranger by Barbara Lewis, a song that makes him think of Chiron. And I think it's just an indication that, you know, this was someone that he wished he could have explored a further relationship, but it is really now just a stranger in his life and that he's happy to be seeing him again. And that he wants that stranger to be back in his life in some capacity. What, what do you think about this diner scene in general?
I actually want to talk about [00:53:00] the blocking, because every time Kevin gets up and comes back, the energy of the scene changes. And they kind of
like, that's what you would call in writing a beat change. I appreciate the directing in that. Showing that he still has busy work and that this is a life that he's made for himself.
He stops by a table of a regular to check in on them. You can see him just thriving in what he's doing right now, which is very important. I like that he is in his own way honest about missing Chiron. He doesn't say the words, but whenever anyone says I think a different way of saying I love you is this made me think of you.
And break down , the, moments of him cooking the meal for Chiron too, because I think that there's like extra attention paid to the care that he's putting into preparation of like diner food, which you wouldn't expect to be
fancy. Most of the
it to be special. He's saying everything he can't say with the food and just, the way to any person's heart, not just a [00:54:00] man's heart, is through the stomach. You know, because if you eat somebody's food, you are being taken care of by them, and you think of them differently after that.
It's a different level of a relationship. So I, I think that was really great, and the director just blew it out of the water. Bear Jenkins is so fucking amazing.
Agree between the blocking and the way that it was shot and the music, I think a lot was being said without being set here. And if you have a keen eye for that sort of thing, you can kind of catch all of the. The care that Kevin still holds for Chiron and that he's able to start sharing it with him again Which is a super beautiful scene and after the two have dinner the two of them go back to Kevin's apartment And Kevin tells Chiron that although his life didn't turn out as he had hoped or expected that he's happy Which results in Chiron breaking down and admitting to him that he hasn't been intimate with anybody or been touched by anybody since their encounter years ago And we kind of just silently transition [00:55:00] into Kevin comforting him and holding him close.
And Chiron remembers himself as little standing on the beach next to the ocean as a blue boy in the moonlight. And that's how we end. Charlie, how did you like how this movie
that his inner child looked back at him. Like, I think his adult self and his inner child connecting is a lot of, you know, the point of that. I thought it was beautiful and I like that it didn't end on a sex scene with him. I like that it just ended with him being held. That's very, it's very intimate.
I also like to think that showing a black man being held in that way is a form of rebellion because black men receiving tenderness from other black men in a non sexual way is something that we never see.
I love that. I think especially for the journey that we go on with Chiron, just that That moment of being [00:56:00] held and protected is kind of where we wanted to be the whole time. And we had so many opportunities where he came really, really close or had a glimpse of it. And this feels like the first time where he feels like it's, it's finally been embraced and it's potentially sustainable and it sort of gives you a sort of a, a tenor of hope as you fade out. And so you can walk away with that
hope rather than anything else.
for sure. Completely agree. Couldn't agree more.
Charlie, do you have anything else you want to share about characters, plot beats, any just like takes you want to rattle off about this film?
This motivates me as a filmmaker to make things that speak more to my community in this way, because there So many things about this film and the way that it's shot, the way that it's put together. God, I keep I'm so the thing I'm most impressed by is the the directing. It's so arthouse.
It's such a arthouse film. It's so Indie, and I feel like Black people in cinema, [00:57:00] we don't get to be treated this way cinematically. You know, we don't get to be lit this way. We're usually not lit properly. If We go into more of the impoverished neighborhoods of the black community. The movie has to look and feel and move a certain way and this movie didn't do that.
I think I tend to just not want to see movies about neighborhoods like that with people who look like me because we get so much of it and it seems that white audiences think, oh yeah that's just the default. I really love that we got to live in that reality, but it was done with intentionality and love and deviating from stereotypes while deepening some stereotypes and adding layers to why certain people would be the way that they are, but still making a strong case for why their humanity deserves to not only be [00:58:00] portrayed in such a loving, kind way, but also to be You know ruminated upon a bit more that's all I have to say.
I'm ready to move on to our ratings If you are this was a great movie
I love it. It was a great movie and I just want to thank you for sharing all that you have and holding space for all this stuff on this podcast. So it's super special that I get to do this with you. So
thanks for being you, man. So let's go into our final ratings. We're going to go ahead and ride the surf for this one and do this out of five waves. So Charlie out of five waves. What would
you rate?
waves five almost isn't enough if we didn't have to like do a graphic for this i'd be like
just a tsunami This is
this is the, this is a seven out of five. Yeah. What's the,
This is a Doges 15 outta 10.
rating didn't match, I'd be like, Steve, what the fuck's wrong with you? Give it [00:59:00] fi
This is the, this is the five. This is
The fives. Five I've ever fived so far.
fivie The most
The fives of the fives.
Yeah. this is Head and Shoulders the best movie we've covered on this
podcast. This is the best thing we've covered on this podcast,
we should try to cover more shit like this. Like,
Yeah, all of the above.
Absolutely.
film made me Tear up multiple times. X Men 97 made me tear up a couple of times, too. Mostly the ro Mostly the
Different tears for
sure.
stuff did. But, Yeah.
beautiful beautiful work.
Well, Hey, more stuff like this for sure. it was an honor to speak about it with you. it's going to do it for this episode of Charlie and Steve watch stuff. We were here to give you our moonlight takes next week.
We're going to be back. Keeping rolling with our pride focused movie month is something that I'm coming up for this term right now. And so we're going to look forward to see you on the next one. Be sure to follow this podcast wherever you get your podcasts. If you haven't already. [01:00:00] Tossing us a five star review would be amazing helps more people find the podcast out there.
So if you're on Spotify, if you're on Apple podcasts, if you're on any other sort of podcast platform, toss us that review. If you haven't already, if you're watching us on YouTube also, hi, hello. I just waved at you because we're, you're watching on YouTube. We have a YouTube now, if you didn't know that. So if you want to peep our beautiful faces, check out Charlie and Steve watch stuff on YouTube, hit a little subscribe on that one, toss the video alike.
And of course, follow us on Instagram. It's At Charlie and Steve watch stuff pod to give us your wave ratings or ratings for anything that we've covered. Cause we always post on there as well. So for myself, Steve Selvig and my good friend, Charlie peppers, we will look forward to seeing you on the
next one. Thanks everybody. Bye.
