Charlie and Steve Watch Stuff

[00:00:00] Hi friends. Welcome to Charlie and Steve. Watch stuff your place to listen to two guys talk about the stuff that they're watching together, and it continues to not be as dirty as it sounds. My name's Steve Snick and I'm joined today by my good friend. But if you see him applying some lipstick to give you a smooch, I would recommend you run very far in the other direction it is Charlie Peppers, y'all.

Hello, I'm here knocking District attorney's unconscious in front of Bruce Wayne, a k a Batman. what's up? Can't wait to talk about this episode.

Just as boldly as you could possibly do it. Just, you know what I, I feel like usually this is the part where we do like pleasantries or whatever, but we're both really, really excited to jump into this one, so we're

so excited.

We're just gonna get right into this because I think this is both one of our favorite characters that we're about to talk about in the entire Batman Animated Series Universe, or just the Batman universe, kind of in general.

We could talk about how we need a poison ivy in the movies like asap, but [00:01:00] that's

spoiling things. That's spoiling things. We're here today. To talk about Batman, the animated series, because of course this is Charlie and Steve Watt stuff and we're, this is the thing that we're watching, but specifically the two episodes that we're covering today are pretty poison and the under dwellers.

And the first episode that we're gonna cover is, of course, pretty Poison, which was released on September 14th, 1992, directed by Boyd Kirkland and written by Paul Dini. The plot of this episode is when Harvey Dent is poisoned with derivatives from an extinct flower. Batman must hunt down the assailant, the plant fanatic poison Ivy, who happens to be Harvey's fiance. I. And I think that is exactly where we should start. once again, it's been a while since I've watched these episodes and the whole, like, Harvey starting out with Pam, a k a Poison Ivy as his fiance was just like totally new to me, It's just

It is genius.

it's really smart. It's obviously smart [00:02:00] and it kind of plays into the long game of Of what Poison Ivy was playing with here, and we'll talk about the origin of that long game here, which is the start of the episode, which are Bruce and Harvey together breaking ground on what is being referred to as Harvey's Dream, a giant penitentiary, because we all know that the only thing that makes us safer are more jails and more police.

Charlie, could you not

agree with that or do you

absolutely. Just we absolutely need more cops in society. Look at all the good they've done.

A hundred percent is exactly why people like Batman exists because they're totally with absolutely no need for extra help. Anyway, part of what happens in this breaking ground of this penitentiary is that you see this Rose being dug out of the ground. And at the same time, you're seeing shots of this rose being saved, preserved in a single jar.

And you can kind of see that it's the end of its life in one place, but one of them is being preserved. And that is also at the same [00:03:00] time, kind of the setup for this arc of poison ivy that we're gonna go on throughout this entire episode. So flash forward to today. Gotham's obviously super safe. No crime is happening, right?

Obviously super safe.

No, literally someone's getting broken outta the penitentiary via helicopter and having to get chased down by Batman because obviously that's not happening anyway, that's not really the point, but that's the point that I'm gonna harp on right now. But what is the point is that you have Harvey debt sitting down to dinner with Pam, a k a poison ivy, which you'll learn later. A k a, his fiance, which you'll also learn later. And they're talking about Bruce here. And I just wanna highlight the juxtaposition that's happening. And Charlie, I want you to talk about this in general as a theme because I think this is our first theme of the episode. You have Harvey talking about Bruce being like he's a man of the people.

Like he loves nice, like he knows how to like get down and dirty with the best of 'em. There's nothing about Bruce that I don't know where, at the same time, everything that he is saying is literally like the [00:04:00] opposite. He's like fighting bad guys. He has this double life that he has no idea about. So talk about a little bit about this juxtaposition and how it's used throughout Batman, the animated series.

It's such a great tool and I wanna point out that the, director of this episode, Boyd Kirkland, would go on to direct and co-write the animated film, Batman Sub-Zero. And the way that that opens up is with one of these juxtapose action segments. But instead of Batman, we're talking about Bat Girl.

And I love that this is something that Boyd Kirkland kept up his sleeve because he saw how effective it was in pretty poison. And I'm always happy when this. Thing of, oh, so-and-so is such a nice guy. Smash cut to bam. They're punching somebody in the face. It's so good. It really harps on the comic book roots of this and I can't get enough.

I.

I agree with you. I was immediately more drawn in and I feel like I was [00:05:00] paying more attention from the onset because of this jumping back and forth, and it, it really knew how to play with us there. But finally, Bruce gets his stuff together. He's like, all right, we already know I'm gonna be late. This is part of the Playboy persona. And he finally gets himself over to dinner with Harvey and Pam and Pam bails kind of fast. And before she leaves, she just plants like I love how they did this where she's just laying the Mac down on Harvey debt and Bruce is like tapping his fingers on the desk and like looking at like, they're not even being coy about it.

Like he's just like, yeah, my guy's getting down right now. I'm just gonna let him do his thing. We're gonna talk about it when she leaves. All good here,

He's being a good friend. That's what he's doing. Bruce is being a good friend.

Amen to that. That's good. Wing, wing Manning right there for sure. But I don't think he expected this at all because I really love like the shriek that Bruce lets out when Harvey tells him that they're engaged after a single week. I, well obviously [00:06:00] Harvey's like super intoxicated by this person and I think that's, we can get into like the plant pheromones of it all of poison Ivy, if you want to, and maybe that's a thing, but what do you think it is about Pam that really like gripped Harvey there?

Because Harvey's, I don't know. I feel like his only love is really justice and the loss. So like what distracts him here?

Oh, I mean, if you look at how they animated , Pam walking out of that damn restaurant. I think it's pretty clear I, well, more than that, Pam is a talented rouss, so I would imagine that she studied dent months before making her approach. She probably knew what talking points to bring up. She knew what buttons to hit.

I think that their courtship was something that she tailored. Before making her approach because he is prey to her, and I would imagine that she also studied up on Bruce and kind of knows what buttons to hit with him.

Totally. I [00:07:00] mean, you kind of hear that in the beginning. She's like, she's being all wispy. And she's like, I heard he's rich. And she's like, bitch, everyone knows that Bruce Van's witch. Are you kidding me? Like everyone knows that that dude's a billionaire. You don't have to play dumb with that. Anyway. Harvey did, gets poisoned very clearly because of the kiss, but like, I guess we can pretend like that. That's not obvious for a second. And he goes faceplant into his chocolate MOUs and I guess like they're trying to play off like the chocolate mousse is the thing that was poisoned because that's what he was ingesting.

We can get to that later, but Harvey goes down. He gets to the hospital, bruce swipes the strain of Harvey's blood, I guess, that they're testing to see what kind of poison is is going on. But they're just like, it ain't good. It ain't good, doc. And. Before we get into Bruce, kind of going after the antidote and all that stuff, we get Pam one more time. And I think this is gonna be the part where I stop calling her Pam, and I'm gonna start calling her poison Ivy because this is pretty much the time where Bruce is like, [00:08:00] I'm pretty sure something's going on here with this one. So Charlie, I wanna hand it over to you. I kind of want you to talk about this moment between Bruce and Pam as she goes to see Harvey in the hospital. And then kind of jumping off into Batman, getting into detective mode.

So the thing about this moment, I think that this episode is truly where the animation for the show stepped it up a notch because Bruce's facial expressions, Pam's facial expressions, and just the impeccable voice acting all coalesced together to just create this masterpiece of an episode. I love that Pam tries to kiss Bruce when Bruce walks her to her car, I think that Pam might've had a better chance of getting into his head and seducing him if she would've waited a bit longer. The fact that she tried to go for it so quickly and Bruce dodged it and went for the hug, but the look, the look that he gives over his shoulder.

Where you can [00:09:00] literally see his wheels turning is so, so good because he wasn't thinking that she was somebody that poisoned Harvey Dent. So when you really consider how great the plan was, she might've gotten away with it, if not for her being impatient.

Bruce basically needs to go figure out how to save Harvey before anything else. And he has an idea that the poison is coming from her. So he immediately checks into her background master, or a doctorate in botany. Obviously an expert in plants and the, the all, all the things that come with them. So we're like, okay. Here we go. This is probably someone who we need to go talk to. Let's go visit her as Batman, and we take a trip to Poison Ivy's Greenhouse and, how do I put this? It's perfect. like I think she knew he was [00:10:00] there immediately. and I don't know, I think he just constantly underestimated her here

Mm-hmm.

just like, yeah, let me just run straight through this.

Like how advanced can this greenhouse full of plants be? And it immediately bites him in the butt because he falls through a trap door and almost gets eaten by giant plants. and we have another moment that I recognize from the AUM games when the the Venus fly trap comes into play, those little flower head teeth, dangly, armed things, those appear in the AUM games. That's something that Poison Ivy releases on you in the Arkham game. So again, like I am loving this future media, taking cues from this animated series. I like,

Yes and

to be so influential.

yes. And to what you just said. I love that this early version of poison ivy can't control the plant's telepathically [00:11:00] yet.

Mm.

It's just all through her advanced skills of botany and her really knowing how to . Create plant monsters. I love that. When we jump to something like Harley Quinn, that version of poison ivy is just floating on plants, throwing plants around, controlling them with her mind, using them like whips.

I love that this early version of Poison Ivy was strong enough to stand on her own without that. Not that I don't like all of the powers that she gets later down the line, but I love that. We're seeing how clever Pam is. We're seeing how righteous she is. She's just such a great villain.

Yeah, for sure. And she has Bruce, or she has Batman, kind of like in the palm of her hand almost immediately. Like we said, that Venus Fly trap just gets like immediate control of him and is like, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna snatch you up, for lack of a better term. And it, he also [00:12:00] Gets a shot of the same poison that Harvey Dent took on. He's trapped by the Venus flytrap. Pam is applying the lips I keep calling her. Pam Poison Ivy is applying the lipstick to her face Just. Just going right into the villain monologue being like, y'all destroyed my plant babies, the roses. But guess what? I saved one jokes on you. I was the person in those shots in the beginning that saved that rose. And guess what? Also, the rose is the only antidote. And you thought that that shit was extinct, but I got one. And here it is. I'm gonna lay this smooch on your face and I'm gonna poison you, and then I'm gonna spray this perfume on me. And what, what? Rise from the dead. Is that what she called it? I call

it Rise from the dead, which is sick. That is like

That needs to be a thing. That needs to be, that is so gothic, that's so dark. And I just love that she is eating, eating this monologue. I'm here for it.[00:13:00]

a hundred percent. But you know what? She didn't. Account for

What?

a small pairing knife, fucking up all of her plants,

Yes.

somewhere in Batman's haze. He manages to slide out a little bat. Bat knife. Is it a bat knife? Was it shaped like a

bat or is it

call it a bat knife.

let's call it a bat knife. A bat? Shiv.

That's,

yeah, a Bat shiv that shift for sure. And just like takes a huge slice and it's just a juicy slice. Like this thing is Gushing with some sort of plant juice, which is concerning. I don't think plants have that much juice inside of them,

Yeah. Plant

so the, it makes it like way more feel like a living thing immediately.

But it's not Batman that kills the plant. It's poison ivy that kills the plant. She gets mad, sees red like you're hurting my babies. How dare you and just starts firing shots from the wrist thing. First of all, her like potential d p s on that thing from the wrist bow is high. She has a fast reload speed on that thing. She's [00:14:00] been practicing.

She's been out the rain, she's been taking her shots. Needs to spend some more time there though, because her aim is shit. Batman dodges it and she just runs through her big Fi. Venus fly trap and kills it. In the pursuing chase, she kind of like gets Batman on the ropes one more time. Lights start falling from the ceiling. Fires going up everywhere. Every plan is dying, which is just like, feels like a nightmare scenario for poison ivy. But nevertheless, she's persisting and she seems to have Batman on the ropes. And he's in the pit one more time. He's still fucked up from the poison, although he seems to conveniently come out of being fucked up from the poison before dropping back into being messed up by the poison.

But I guess we don't need to do semantics on that one.

He is a superhero, I guess. And. He actually gets the best of poison ivy here because he was hiding the rose that was almost extinct the entire time. And

Mm-hmm.

you kill me, you kill your baby as well. I don't think he says You kill [00:15:00] your baby, but that's essentially,

you know what I like about, I think that Poison Ivy is the best portrayal of a villain we've seen so far because her motivation is so clear and her weakness is so clear. Like the fact that she is righteous about saving plant life and really is, I think what the comics call it. She's an environmental terrorist, yeah. She's an eco terrorist. And the fact that Batman so quickly deduces that if he were to threaten a plant, he'd get out of that situation is what was missing with Scarecrow. It's what was missing with the Joker. I'll let man bat slide because he was a metaphor for how people see Batman to be animalistic with no redeeming qualities.

So that worked for me. Poison ivy is on another level because the writing for her in this episode is so solid, even down to her temper. If she had [00:16:00] kept her monologue to herself and hadn't revealed that she had the anecdote, hadn't tried to kiss Bruce so quickly, hadn't gotten drunk on her own Kool-Aid, I really think she would've gotten away with it.

But also to her credit, she is living in a society where men. , nine times outta 10, probably aren't listening to her and are underestimating her. So this is her moment to say, fucker, I saw that you didn't really think that I could be this calculating, but who's trapped in my plant house now?

And someone who truly can be like representative of the frustrations that environmentalists must feel like they're just constantly working against a tide that's pushing them back, seemingly three feet every time they feel like they take a step forward. And

Right.

Essentially self-important men with shovels can dig up whatever the hell they want in order to create a quote unquote safer environment for you.

Even though that's not necessarily true, which is kind of the original message of this episode. It's like these [00:17:00] two men destroyed something to the point of extinction and they created this, they like with this destruction, they created the reaction. In Poison Ivy.

Yeah. Also, if we're looking big picture. Global warming is a huge issue. The environment is in danger. Poison ivy is not wrong. She is not wrong the way she's going about it. We will unpack that later, but also I'm not, I'm not mad at her. I'm really not that mad about what she's doing. Of all the villains, I'm mad at Poison ivy the least.

I mean, isn't that the sign of a good villain

Right,

they have a point, a point that you can at least have a discussion around merits of how they go about the point

right.

Obviously that's where a lot of people go wrong, but I think if we're going to like. Dip [00:18:00] this into, I mean, not to compare this to Marvel, but if you're gonna look at something like the M C U, the reason why a villain like Killmonger was so good is because that dude had a point,

Right

he might not have gone about it in the best way.

Like my guy killed a lot of people, but he wasn't necessarily wrong about some of the stuff that he was talking about.

He wasn't, he wasn't magneto

yep.

not wrong, definitely was a dick about how he went about it, and also had a superiority complex.

Yeah, we could, but those are the best. I mean, we're talking about some of the most iconic from their times and their, their representations. So Batman. True to his nature. Doesn't do anything other than rescue poison ivy from the burning wreckage of her greenhouse and delivers her safely to ARCA asylum where she can be locked up and say crazy stuff to herself.

But why let her have the play?

I know. Well, you know what? You know what? [00:19:00] To the show's credit, she can't control plants with her mind yet. I think one plant in this version of poison ivy isn't as hurtful and destructive as the later version of her, especially in the Acum series. I think I think they were being kind, they were being like, Hey, we're locking you up, but here's some company.

I mean, if you're creating the plant from fricking Shop of Horrors,

Hmm.

I don't know if I'm giving you a plant to hang out with That's just my opinion,

especially if it has thorns on it.

Well, that was the plot of the episode, so I just wanna kind of bear down on a little bit of individual character notes that we didn't touch on while kind of going through the, the plot beats and all of that good stuff. So you had a little note about Batman here. I want you to kind of clear out and give us your thoughts on Batman throughout this episode and where we're at right now. We're, we're about five episodes in at this point. Like, where are we seeing Batman so far?

I [00:20:00] think Batman, . Is a very strong detective in this episode. Love that look that he gave poison ivy when she tried to kiss him. I also love that he loves Harvey Dent so much and really cares about him as a person that's gonna have an enormous payoff. And the two face, two-parter, oh my God. Say that three times fast.

Two phase two parter. Two phase two parter. Two phase two parter. I did it

phase two parter.

and my biggest note. Which isn't really a note, just an observation. I can hear Kevin still finding Batman's voice when he's in the cow. His voice sounds a lot softer and a lot more affable than it will down the line. I think he's still finding the darkness of the voice, the militant side of the voice.

I think that . It's very interesting and I'm also in my head cannon. I think that he is still settling [00:21:00] into his role as Batman, not Kevin, but Bruce. He's getting used to being Batman, so his voice is reflective of him still being a bit more tethered to the Bruce Wayne persona than he will be down the line,

Well, poison Ivy, I don't know which else there is to say. She loves plants. She calls them her babies. We'll see her again for sure. I wanted to park on Harvey Dent really quick because we're really close to the two face episodes,

so we're getting a little bit of time with him beforehand. But if I like, again, if I I've tried to view this from a lens of I don't necessarily know the universe, or I'm coming into the universe fresh. I think I'm gonna be like, if I was new to this, I would be surprised that Harvey Dent is going to turn into a bad guy that is so centered to the story, only because I don't feel like the show's done much to center him as a good guy

[00:22:00] Right.

And. Maybe that's gonna happen more. So, I mean, obviously they're dedicating 40 minutes to it over a two part episode.

So like obviously we're gonna get a lot of Harvey Dent character here. But I would just love to hear about what you think about him so far and if we're going to get any more of that character. 'cause you're the expert here, so if we are gonna get any more of that characterization leading into his two-face turn.

You know, I hear what you're saying about us not really seeing that he is a good guy, but what makes me care about him is the fact that Bruce cares about him. . That's the most important thing that we're seeing right now is that Bruce caress so much about this dude that not only at the end of his long crime fighting night is he showing up to dinner, he's giving him advice about this woman that he got abruptly engaged to.

He's doing a lot of things that a good friend would do, and he's also, I think this is the most personal case we've seen with him so far. We don't get a lot of personal Batman stories with him. [00:23:00] protecting one of his friends. it's usually just him protecting Gotham in general. So this makes the loss that happens later down the line, that much more devastating.

That was awesome.

You're awesome,

even con I that was such a good response. I didn't even consider that. That was so good. mOving on to Harvey Bullock. I just think there's more points in the Harvey isn't dirty, he's just a big doof dude column that, so I continue to be wrong about that.

Who likes donuts.

who like, Hey, you know who doesn't like donuts, especially when they're a police officer.

No offense if you're a police officer.

I know.

please don't pull me over.

Oh my God. Please, whatever we do, don't offend the cops. They're just so upstanding,

because we weren't doing that earlier at all. I actually wrote in the show notes that he's not dirty, he's just an idiot. And you actually pushed back on me about that. They just overdid it for the last, which I guess is true, he gives me high school defensive lineman vibes that

like kind of fell into being a cop after.

He couldn't really figure out what else he wanted to do with his life. But maybe [00:24:00] I'll be proven wrong about that.

I think you will be.

just how I feel about police officers.

You know what?

I have a very soft spot for him. I'm a Harvey Bullock apologist, and I'm gonna own that throughout the show. There's a great episode centered just on him coming up from his point of view that really rounds him out as a character. I think that he's being painted with such broad strokes right now, and later we're gonna get the nuance, but

I really enjoy him as a character and also as somebody that is a light foil for Batman. Not a full-on foil, just somebody who doesn't quite trust him. I think that's important, but when Batman and Harvey work together, they have such great chemistry.

Mm. Great points, great points as always. This is my favorite Riddler Trophy that I've found so far some additional background voices were done by Melissa Manchester.

If you've never heard of Melissa [00:25:00] Manchester before, she's actually a Grammy winning artist back in the eighties. If you know the song, don't Cry Out Loud. That's not the song that won the Grammy, but that's probably her biggest single she actually was originally hired to be the voice of poison ivy

Oh

and apparently wasn't quite vibing with the lines and the part, and they had Diane Pershing there. was there to do the additional background voices, and they had her read it for giggles and apparently she knocked it out of the fucking park. And Diane Persian got the role of poison ivy, and that's the voice that we hear in this episode and moving forward. And Melissa ended up doing background voices for that episode. So an interesting little connection. Most of Manchester coming off the top ropes, doing Voices for Batman, the Animated series. This Riddler Trophy is just a, just a fun little fun fact. Poison Ivy's address is listed as 69 Green Street in Gotham City. [00:26:00] Nice.

Ao.

Now we know why Harvey got engaged after a week. And finally the climax of this episode was also adopted into the SS N E Ss Adventures of Batman and Robin video game. So you get to fight that big ass vagina plant. Oh, did I finally say it out loud? I said it out loud.

Oh, they could have, I think they could have guessed what you were talking about.

Oh, they could have, that was also one of the fun facts that I considered including, but I feel like we could have just made it a euphemism the entire time. So yeah. Now that we've gotten our Riddler trophies all collected and we've gained those experience points, it's time to give this episode our battering rating.

Charlie, I know

you wanna go first on this one. Please tell us

yes.

your battering rating is.

I'm giving this four outta five batter rings. It is the first truly great episode of the series in my humble opinion. I love that Bruce has a personal connection to the victim. It's a nice change of pace. I love that we get a femme fatel. It's about damn time. [00:27:00] I also think that this iteration of Poison ivy is my favorite version of her.

And I would say that after this version of her, it's the version from the Harley Quinn, H b o Max series. And then under that I'm gonna give it to Uma Thurman and Batman and Robin.

Well, we didn't even talk about it, and I also gave this four batter rings out of five. Great episode. Super fun from the start to finish. Loved poison Ivy, loved kind of the entire progression of the episode from start to finish. The fight at the end was really fun and I just had a really good time with it.

It just felt like exactly the kind of stuff we want out of this show. So four out of five. Not quite perfect, but what can be, well, actually a few will be, but you know, we, we will, we'll save the room for them for sure. Finally, before we move on to our second episode, I, I think it's time for me and Charlie to just generally petition.

And Charlie, I'll let you step on your soapbox for this, for Poison Ivy [00:28:00] in the current Batman cinematic universe. So

Oh man.

you on the spot. I'm putting you on the spot. I'm making you do this. How would you incorporate Poison Ivy into a current Batman movie?

Okay. It depends on which universe of Batman we're doing. Okay. So if I were pitching an idea to Warner Brothers about this, we are rebooting the entire mess of the Snyder verse. Snyder verse is gone. So that means, that's a bummer. That means that Margo Robbie, as Harley Quinn probably isn't coming back, which really sucks because she is great in the role.

And that would be what I would most want to see. I would wanna see that version of Harley Quinn play against a new version of Poison Ivy. And if I were gonna get Poison Ivy back, I would get Uma Thurman to do the role again. , but I would get a script that has [00:29:00] camp elements but is serious. I would want it to be something that kind of has the lightness, but also the complexity of thought in the heart of a James Gunn picture.

I wanna see James Gunn's version of Poison Ivy, 'cause he has the chops to do her justice. I would also wanna see her in a love affair with Harley Quinn. I wanna see them as a couple 'cause they are one of my favorite chips. It makes sense. I think that that character particularly now has a lot of shit to say about the world.

I wanna see her control her plants telepathically. Matter of fact, I just wanna see a movie, but damn it, we already had a Birds of Prey movie that wasn't even the Birds of Prey. I Was gonna say that that's what we should have had. But if they wanted to do a Gotham Sirens movie, poison Ivy Harley Quinn, and Catwoman working together.

So if at [00:30:00]

would be your Catwoman for that?

oh my God, don't, it's so hard, Michelle, my top favorite, and I'll talk about that once we get to Kat in the claw, but if I had to pick someone to be. The next Catwoman in the James Gunn DC Universe. There's a couple of things we have to consider. One Superman isn't super old

I don't think that Batman's gonna be that much older than him. So we're probably looking at an actor for Batman that's gonna be. 30, 35 at most, because we're gonna want him in multiple pictures. And he's also gonna have a Robin in the Brave and the Bold, the first Batman movie in this new universe.

So I would say that his Catwoman would probably have to be somewhere in the 30 to 35 age range as well. They could also be interesting with it and have Catwoman be slightly older. I think that that would be a nice dynamic and a nice change of pace..[00:31:00] If we were talking about this 10 or 15 years ago, I would say Angelina Jolie, hands down would be a great catwoman.

But if we're looking at somebody with Catwoman energy what actress would nail that part? Mm. You know what? I'm gonna go out of the box, and this is a bit older than I think that they would go. For Catwoman. I'm gonna say Charlize Theone.

Oh, that would be so cool.

Great actress. Gorgeous

I've already, I've already put down my pre-order for this movie. I've, you, I've got two seats in the theater, please. . Signed me up

right? Right. I think that Charlize Theone would be great.

Well, thank you for letting me tee you up on a random question that I, I didn't prepare you for in the first place, and then proceeding to just knock it outta the park on the first shot. So Charlie Pepper's, everyone that wealth of knowledge inside of that beautiful brain.

Thank

but let's move on to our second episode. This one is titled The [00:32:00] Under Dwellers. It was released on October 21st, 1992, directed by Frank Power and Story by Tom Ruger. The plot of this episode is a series of crimes perpetrated by leprechauns, quote unquote, start plaguing Gotham City.

However, as time goes on, Batman discovers that the real perpetrators of the crimes are children, Kept in the sewers and ruled by a king, another quote, unquote, who forces them to remain fully silent. Now, we're not gonna spend a lot of time on this one because spoilers, we both hated it, but

hate it with a passion, but we're gonna talk about why. And also in the . It in the spirit of generosity. I do have a couple of strong points that I want to mention about this episode. You know, because I see what it was trying to do. It was trying to do something interesting and I'll give it that. But other than that uh, [00:33:00] skip

It's a tough look, especially in 2023

Mm-hmm. .

It's just, it doesn't age well at all. It just feels very of its time, which is not a compliment in this sense, but I guess we could start with the beginning where we can skip over all of like the whatever rich lady gets her purse stolen by a kid in a green hood and calls it a leprechaun.

And somehow Bruce Wayne fucking believes her, which is just the dumbest shit I've ever. Heard, like, come on. Brilliant.

A billionaire.

A billionaire believed her really

abil. Yeah. The rich old lady. And then of course like thank God for Alfred being like, okay, like yeah, it was a leprechaun that she saw. And you believe, yeah, wink, wink, leprechauns.

For sure. Anyway.

you know, in Bruce's defense, he did almost just get eaten by a big plant monster. So I think as far as him being open-minded, he's like, what the hell? Maybe

Okay. I'll give you that.

I'll give him.

I'm reaching, I'm reaching. But

It's good [00:34:00] plot, it's fair. If you're gonna give me plot context from the last episode to Bridge the Gap, then I guess I'll give it to you.

Yeah.

And before we really get Batman below ground, figuring out what's happening, I just wanna touch quickly on like we're, as the audience immediately introduced to the situation of what's happening underground and. I mean, it's tough it's basically just like children living silently, underground, stealing shit for like this creepy guy with one eye. And I like, I guess we could just leave it at that. Is there anything more to say about the sewer

Oh,

also,

there? Like,

also, no black kids in Gotham. Really? Really? I

that where you wanna see the representation?

that's not where I wanna see the representation. Maybe I just wanted to be like, I wanted to, maybe this is something that their writer's assistant brought up. They're like, no, no, we can't have black slaves. And, and the sewers. No, no, no. We can't,

we can't do that.

Especially not if they're kids, but also at the same time, I'm like, damn, everyone, every [00:35:00] animation of a kid in the sewer looked exactly like, even if they're not black, we can't have one,

I don't disagree with you here, and hopefully there will be more represe. I, now that I'm taking a step back, is there more representation in general in this show at all? Has anyone not been white?

I, Hmm.

Okay, so I actually didn't wanna ask you this and now I'm gonna ask

you this in the LA because is Harvey debt black? Because,

no.

I, and I didn't wanna ask you that question 'cause I didn't know if that was ignorant of me to be like,

Steve, you can't just ask me.

animated black.

If

can't just ask me if animated characters are black. How dare you.

now it's recorded

now it's recorded. Oh no.

It has dexterity forever.

You know, I would say that with Harvey Dent, . It's a bit like how Lex Luther was animated in the Superman animated series. I don't think that we could pin Lex Luther down as being strictly [00:36:00] in the Superman cartoon, and I don't think we can pin down Harvey Dent as being strictly Caucasian. And the animated series, I was actually commenting.

Not even commenting in my head. I thought this, I didn't put in my notes during the dinner scene with Harvey and Bruce, I was like, Harvey could get it. Yeah. Like just the way he's animated his face, like he got those lips. He, he's a handsome dude. I would say that the animation team just wanted to

Give Harvey an interesting look though, pulling that back and zooming out. Maybe it's a little fucked up that they tried to make him racially ambiguous and he ended up being the villain will impact that later. But I think, yeah, he just, I don't think that he's strictly white, if that makes sense.

We, we have a prominent black character coming up. Lucius Fox, who was played by Morgan Freeman in the [00:37:00] Nolan Verse films. He's in the show, but he doesn't appear as much as Alfred, but he exists. He exists, and I know that in Batman Beyond Barbara Gordon, who is Bat Girl, is married to a black district attorney.

There we go. And I mean, I, if we wanna like, take a step back and really contextualize this, this was just a, like a very prominent, larger problem in the media happening in the early nineties. I mean,

Oh, when? A hundred percent.

how far away are we from friends? Which is the widest show, you know,

Oh my God. Wait, there's white people in friends.

there's, it's the, it might as well be snow my friend.

Oh,

no.

winter in New York at all times. until Aisha Tyler came through

for

Gabrielle Union.

Yeah. There we go. When, wait, when was GBU in it?

Did I miss that?

Yeah. Gabrielle Union was in friends. She played Kristen and she was in the episode, the one with the cheap wedding dress. She was a [00:38:00] love

interest to both Ross and Joey.

Oh, interesting. I totally missed that.

Oh, also if I was Kristen, I definitely,

time since I've watched friends.

yeah. Yeah, I hope she ended up with Joey. 'cause that's the only logical answer. , if it's between

Ross and Joey

Anyway, this is how much we like this episode. Everyone. We are just

our first tangent,

off the tracks So I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring us back onto it and I just wanna talk about, I mean, Batman has to figure out that this is all happening. He's eventually just gonna go underground. And I just wanna talk about his use of gadgets here because I do think that there is like a kind of a cool example of a couple of his gadgets.

He has like a little x-ray vision, action to figure out where exactly to like cut through a hole in the ground to get down there. He uses like a. Torch thing to get through a deadbolt lock. Were there any other cool gadget moments that you noticed or was this like, I just feel like they're slowly rolling out like what exactly he's capable of, or it's like Star [00:39:00] Wars in the forest where they just keep making it up as they go and this is now a rule or a thing that they have to use at their disposal.

I like that this version of Batman tends not to lean too, too heavily on his gadgets. I think this episode did a bit. Extra on that front, I think, because they were just flexing and they wanted to show how cool the show was. But I, I usually like that Batman just sticks to his grappling hook, his batter rings and smoke bombs to get around, especially with that sweet, sweet sound that the grappling hook makes that

It is iconic.

It is such a sharp, smooth sound.

Agreed. let's talk about how Batman kidnaps a kid.

I.

Yeah.

No other way to transition to that. He just straight up like hypnotized as a kid and kidnaps him. I guess technically the kid was already, so he was like kidnapping him from his kidnap situation that was also Stockholm Syndrome because he felt like he couldn't leave.

Mm-hmm.[00:40:00]

God, this episode sucks. He brings and he brings him back to to Wayne Manor. And I guess we get like a cute scene of Alfred trying to play babysitter and like getting him to take a bath, which is also problematic. And

Mm-hmm.

like the funny stuff of him, like stealing all the silverware because it's all he knows and all that stuff is there.

You know what? I think that they were paying homage to Jason Todd, who is the second Robin and the Batman Cannon.

Okay.

Jason Todd is someone who Batman caught trying to steal the wheels off the Batmobile, but instead of beating him up, he took him under his wing and he became the second Robin. And he was kind of the working class man's Robin.

He was impulsive, he was super violent, he was moody. He wasn't as bright and optimistic as Dick Grayson, nor was he as studious and intellectual and. As put together as Tim Drake, who was the [00:41:00] third robin in the Mythos. I think that they were trying to give this kid Jason Todd Energy and it flopped. But I see the ambition and me seeing the ambition will be reflected in my review.

Well, so eventually this, they clean this kid up and they are like, all right, let's go Take this dude out essentially. So the, the kid leads Batman down. His name's Frog, so I'm gonna call him Frog. So Frog leads Batman down to the sewers, where he comes up to the bell that Sewer King uses to like command all the kids together.

And he destroys it and tells all the children that they're free. And then Sewer King rolls up with a bunch of alligators and is like the fuck they are. And six, his alligators on Batman. Where? Now I wanna perk on this for a moment too.

Oh, I think I know what you're gonna say. I think I know what you're gonna say.

straight up kills an alligator, just like snaps his fucking head in half, dude. So is that cool?

LIke

the [00:42:00] fact, you know what's so funny? We, we pause two different things, gave us pause. The fact that Batman was strong enough to hold open . In alligator's mouth, I immediately called bullshit on, you know, I don't believe that. Please, I demand a rewrite I call shenanigans. That was so fucking dumb,

there's, there's actually a Riddler trophy that I didn't use for this episode, which was basically like the fact that Batman body slams an alligator is physically impossible.

Like he literally wouldn't be able to do it. So I, I'm with you there,

I don't care how much he works out. That is just absurd. So absurd.

I don't care.

Oh my God. Well, so after he murders an alligator dead. He basically hunts down. He chases down sewer king and again, is like super cool with the prospect that he's baby dead when he falls into the water and the alligators go down after [00:43:00] him. But I actually, this is one part that I really, really liked because I actually thought that that was it.

Oh yeah. Like the Gators get their moment to like eat their owner because he doesn't take good care of them or whatever. But I liked that he has command of them.

That gave him like a little bit more like mythos, in my opinion, beyond

just like him being a creepy dude that commands all of these children. But eventually the fighting all ensues. Batman pursues and he gets the best of sewer king, and he has another moment where he could just let the guy die.

He falls onto some train tracks, the trains come in, it's gonna take him out. But he saves him because of at the end, Batman can't help himself for justice. But, and this is the final little thing that I wanna talk about here, because I do think that this is important. Batman, almost like Shows a little crack in the armor here. He's like, listen, I was real tempted to just like, let me be the judge, jury and executioner here because what you did specifically to these children. So I think we've, we learned really one big thing here when it comes to kids, and I'm sure [00:44:00] it's because of him relating his childhood trauma to everything that's happening here. He does not have As steady of a hand of justice as you'd like to believe, or even he would like to believe. Like he had that moment where he was like, yeah, this fucker can die.

I have something to say to that, that is, that is foreshadowing for something that is gonna happen years from now with Tim Drake, years

from now. So that's all I'm gonna say, but I, I, I clock that too.

So that's really gonna do it for the plot. Is there anything we wanna touch on with Batman or the sewer king that we, we haven't really touched on? He's obviously a cult leader. You said something in the notes about him reminding you of the cult leader from the last of us, which I thought was a really good pull.

Oh yeah.

fucker. I really wanted to die from the first second I saw him in the show.

I guess that's worth saying. I only watched the Last of us, the show. I never played the game because

I'm an Xbox girly.

you gotta, you gotta come down [00:45:00] and you gotta play it. You gotta play it.

I know I should just tell Aaron I'm taking a log weekend so I can play video games with you.

Does

Oh, please,

like a plan, right?

please,

All right. Book it again. We've put it on a recorded line. So I just wanna give a shout out to Alfred really quick. Rises, shine Master Leprechaun was legitimately hilarious, so at least Alfred had a moment to have a, a funny line.

we're gonna move on to our ridler trophies before our battering rating for this episode. This actually has the smallest credited cast of the DC extended animated universe ever. This is, this episode has the smallest credited cast. It only has four names listed as credited voice actors on this episode, so we'll never have another episode that has that few people listed as voice actors for the episode.

I just thought that was kind of interesting.

And so I actually wanna read this out loud, kind of verbatim of where I pulled it from and, and Charlie, I would love to get your thoughts based [00:46:00] off of it, and we can use that to launch into our battering rating for the episode.

Mm-hmm.

And so I pulled this from essentially the, the, the Wikipedia for the episode that we use for all of our half ass internet research.

But don't worry, there's sources on everything. But discussing the hurdles that he had to overcome while directing this episode, Frank Power noted that it was, quote unquote my first episode as director, and there were still things in it that I cringe at. Usually when we get an episode, we get . To use a lot of discretion and change things. I wish I had been able to spend more time on that script. Another problem at the time was that we had storyboard people who made things difficult. I found myself going back two or three times to fix scenes. They didn't quite understand what we were shooting for a higher standard. So there was always a constant drain on my time. The whole opening sequence of the kids playing chicken with the train should have been cut. That was what we had to contend with at the beginning of the season. We had these little public service announcement worked into the scripts, [00:47:00] a concept we nixed real quick, what do you think about that?

I love that he can admit that it wasn't great.

I don't know. I am not recalling how many episodes he ends up doing of the show, but this is early in the show, so I'll let them have it like they're still finding their sea legs. It . Is what it is. I hate this episode. No desire to watch it again, but at the same time, it tried to do something different.

Should we go to our battering ratings?

We should go to our battering ratings. And I think the one thing I'm gonna just kind of, yes. And at the end of that is that there was another sort of note in all of that,

that this episode actually caused them to reconsider their partnership with the animation studio for a

oh wow.

Okay. So there was drama.

There was drama.

There was, and I, I mean, that quote kind of gives you the idea that there's drama, but yeah, they were like, maybe this isn't the right studio. And then they're [00:48:00] quoted being like, we're glad that we stuck with it and worked through everything and figured it out. But like, obviously Sometimes the, the growing pains and the moments of it not working quite right comes out in the final product.

So all that said, I'm gonna take us into the battering rating for this episode. And unfortunately, this is my lowest one yet I am giving this one single battering. Hated it.

Hate it.

Charlie, what about you?

I think this is one of the times where we, oh, we match for pretty poison as well, but I'm giving it one star as well. I. Would give it half a star, but I'm giving it one star on the merit of it, trying something different. It took a confident swing with the story. It tried to really do something interesting with the villain.

I don't think it stuck the landing at all. And also since they had drama, you really can't fault them too, too much. But I'm also like, this is a bad episode, y'all. [00:49:00] It's bad.

And you know what? Sometimes there's gonna be some clunkers. That's what happens.

Mm-hmm.

Well, that's gonna do it for today's episode of Charlie and Steve. Watch stuff that was pretty poison and the under dwellers. Next time we're coming back, we're just moving right on through this Batman Animated

series. When we come back next time, we'll be reviewing p o v and the forgotten. Please be sure to subscribe to Charlie and Steve.

Watch stuff. If you haven't already, share it with your friends. Give us a nice little rating, preferably five stars. But if it's not quite five stars, we'd love to hear your feedback as well. We wanna just thank you for being along with us on the journey so far. We're gonna continue watching stuff and we're gonna continue talking about it with each other.

So if you're along for the ride, we're really grateful that you're here. For myself, Steve Snick and my friend Charlie Peppers, we will see you on the next one. Bye friends.

Bye.